Is Javi’s job safe?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Vicarage Road, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    And look how that ended up.
     
  2. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    What's the point in this thread when we already have a "Gracia out" thread ?
    Do we also need a "Is Javi's job insecure" thread for completeness ?
     
    Steve Leo Beleck likes this.
  3. Pob

    Pob Reservist

    Are people seriously calling for Javi to go? Jeez what a bunch of phalluses we fans have become.
     
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  4. Leighton Buzzer

    Leighton Buzzer Reservist

    I think it just boils down to the number of wind up merchants we have on this forum.
    Javi is clearly the best we have had since the late and great GT.
    Oh and I am old enough to remember plenty of fans used to moan about him at the time also.
    Seems some things never change.
     
  5. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I think only a couple are and even then, I’d say it’s hard to say whether it’s a genuine belief.

    There’s a fair few though that are rightly questioning aspects of his management over the past few months.

    None of us know what’s happening behind closed doors so we can only make our own assumptions on what we are seeing - my opinion is that if we keep doing the same things, we will likely see the bad form continue. I’d like to see Gracia change things - rather than the club change Gracia. I just don’t see the current tactics/formation working even with the addition of Welbeck and Sarr. But it’s just my opinion. Those two signings could make the current formation and tactics take on a new dimension. Seems that’s what Gracia is banking on.

    But if we bring them into the team, the formation and tactics remain the same and results don’t pick up, then Gracia is will be making a rod for his own back in terms of his continued employment with us so far as I can see.
     
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  6. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Just football fans in general, unless you got an Alex Ferguson there's always going to be unhappy fans. Absolutely nothing wrong with fans wanting Javi out, personally I disagree but at the end of the day we all want what's best for the club, we all just reach different conclusions on how that's reached.
     
  7. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    The subjective question is when would the time be right and how much evidence would be required to decide on that. Extrapolating from last season is a bit tenuous. Would another head coach necessarily do better with the current defensive options? Would we want him anyway just for the potential 'bounce'? Does a bit of 'going through the motions' inevitably set in with a head-coach at some point (except in the case of Ferguson maybe - although he nearly went from the Manure early on too)? Will Javi finally change his set-up when both Wellbeck and Sarr are fully fit and available? We have no evidence either way on that one yet. Questions, questions. Decisions, decisions.

    Personally, I'm happy to let Gino decide if a change is necessary, if so when, or if at all. It's not as if he hasn't got form in these matters and will already have a potential replacement lined up. So, if it does happen, the change will be as seamless as usual.

    The time certainly isn't yet. We really do need to see what the Sarr/Wellbeck affect might be. If things continue badly it will probably happen before Christmas giving the newcomer time to make representations before the next 'window'. It would cost Gino a bit of cash (£5m?) to buy out Javi's contract. Javi can hardly be accused of breaking the terms of it (like that thing in a basket up Scouse way).

    If we don't get at least a point on Saturday though, the dissatisfaction will ratchet up a bit more.
     
  8. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    The start to this season has been a disaster especially game 1. But too soon to want him out after a respectable last season.
     
  9. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Lets see where we are in the table at Christmas - Big Sam or Pullis will be available with 17 games to preserve Premier League status. At the end of the day the Pozzos make money on player trading. The club is the factory to turn potential into profit. The bottom line therefore is to finish 16th or better. The push for top ten is about intensifying and getting better raw material in with the prospect of bigger profits. So Richarlison a £27 million profit - Sarr hopefully a £50 million profit. No doubt the expectation this year is to finish 7-10. I expect 11-14 will be tolerated, below 14th i think we will change the Head Coach. If there is any risk of relegation half way through the season we will act like any other club in the same position and change the coach.
     
  10. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Agree with nearly all of that.

    The only thing I don’t agree upon is that the end of last season can be largely discounted. I know people have different points of view about that - but when the form/tactics/formation and personnel largely remain the same as under that poor run of form, I think it’s fair to link the two.

    Javi has earned time. I just think the hope is that he doesn’t burn through that time doing the same things that appear to be failing us right now.

    As per the Pozzo’s history and Duxbury’s comments about coaches, he is coming up to the end of his natural ‘lifespan’ as far as their outlook is/was concerned. I think it’s now incumbent on him to show them that it’s not broke, so they don’t need to fix it.

    As for matters with the defence - I think both head coach and owner/chairman/board are at fault. The excerpt that @reids posted from ‘State of Play’ the other week had comments from Duxbury that stated the Head Coach is consulted about the what type of players he wants and can discuss specific names - he just isn’t involved in negotiations. So if the defence is not good enough, it’s partly because Gracia hasn’t been clear that we are weak in that area and thinks what we have is good enough. So as Head Coach, we can certainly criticise him for how bad we are defensively. Because it’s his job to coach players he believes to be good enough to prove his opinion right.
     
  11. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Christmas is too far away if results stay on their current trend. We’d need a sharp upturn in form over the second half of the season which we consistently show we aren’t capable of. We have not been a club to win more than we lose in the PL era - and we’d need to be. We aren’t a team that wins 7/8 games out of 10 games in the PL - not yet. And certainly not amongst the inevitable pressure we’d be under to do so.

    I would also expect Gracia to get his P45 if we finished 12th or lower. PL survival is just the bare essential. I think season-on-season improvement is what’s expected, especially when spending £40m on one player and adding an England striker this year. Following up last season with a disappointing effort when given greater tools would leave his position in peril I think.
     
  12. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    I'm pleased that that's the way the 'Pozzo model' works. It's the way I hoped it did work and it strikes me as healthy. That the head coach has an input into the areas that need strengthening and can suggest specific names that might fill the gaps. Then steps back.

    But we don't know that Javi didn't make those representations this window anyway. He might have indeed identified defensive shortcomings and suggested some specific 'new blood'. Gino might have disagreed. There's nothing to say that, when Javi provides his input, it will necessarily be acted upon. Maybe the 'business case' couldn't be made. Maybe Gino at al did try to get some new personnel in but failed for a potential multitude of reasons. They did try with Rose.

    I'd find it hard to believe that Javi didn't at least say "look guys, our defensive options aren't great at the moment. We need a new LB and CB". Then he got Dawson and we just failed to get Rose. In which case he's having to do the best with what he has through no fault of his own.
     
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  13. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    You are correct that we don’t know - so all we can do is speculate. And speculate on both sides of the coin.

    I would speculate that given Duxbury’s comment of how it works, then Gracia had a window of opportunity to say ‘I need 2 quality CB’s as a must. A winger would be appreciated too.’ If Gino disagreed, then what does that say about Gracia’s reputation for highlighting things with the owner? I’d say it undermines him and he has left clubs in the past when that’s been done to him. For me, the indications are that he hasn’t been clear that the defence needed significantly improving. Just my outlook.

    The move for Rose looks like it was made out of being told the player was available if you ask me. It was all very last minute rather than a concerted effort to get a LB in.

    I’m just not keen to extrapolate Gracia from the defensive issues at the club. Be clear with the owner about what you need - if he disagrees, why? If he tried and failed - what’s wrong with our recruitment and supposed world class scouting network? And if he wasn’t clear to the point that Gino listened, then I’d say he’s given the impression that what we have is good enough or can be made good enough.
     
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  14. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    We were rumoured to have had a bid accepted for Marvin Plattenhardt as well just before the window closed, with the player subsequently rejecting the move, so it did seem as if there was a concerted effort to get an LB in - it was just one that was made too much at the last minute.
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  15. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Again we don’t know. But it doesn’t stretch my imagination too much to think someone may have been in for Masina, hence the LB bids.
     
  16. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I think this is too harsh, esp given the length of his contract. If we sack every manager who finishes below 11th we will be constantly changing managers. We spent heavily on one player but were outspent by many. I think a finish outside the bottom 6 will always be acceptable given the relative financial muscle. However losing runs do eat away at team confidence and belief in the manager and I don't think we can just forget the poor end to last season. If we are in the bottom 3 in 6 weeks time, I think we will see a change but I really hope we have recovered by then as I like Gracia and I like the continuity at manager level.
     
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  17. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    It is harsh. And I’m not saying it’s what I want to happen. Rather that I just expect it would.

    I keep saying it - but given the Pozzo’s history and Duxbury’s comments regarding the length of time they expect from a Head Coach, at the end of this season, if we were to be behind where we were last season - then I would them to think the squad need a new voice etc.
     
  18. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I think and hope you're wrong. If they are that wedded to improving on league position each year then Gracia was a fool to finish 11th. Maybe that's why he threw the towel in when we had 7th in our grasp knowing 8th or lower this year would lead to the sack ?!
     
  19. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    We lose on Saturday and JG could be gone on Monday.
    We look awful and nothing has changed since one poor form at the end of last season. Other teams have strengthened and we did not.
    We are just treading water and without a life jacket...
     
  20. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Did anyone ever find the safe?
     
  21. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    We didn't strengthen? We made our record signing ever. By about £10m! Ffs!
     
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  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    If both Deeney and Doucoure are out and Gracia does play his 4-2-2-2 (with Okaka/Success + Cleverly) then frankly I don’t think Gracia has much in him as a coach. I don’t think he will do this but I am going to read the team sheet with apprehension.
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  23. HELGO

    HELGO Reservist

    There can’t be much difference between Garcia’s record here and Mazzarri?
     
  24. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    It’s a results business. I like Gracia, but my concern is whether he is too nice, and not prepared to change things when things are going wrong. We need to be difficult to beat, and at the moment we look anything but. A new manager does normally give the place a lift. We will know more tomorrow, and a good result will end the negativity, but I just can’t see it, but would love to be proved wrong.
     
  25. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I wouldn't mind betting we actually win the next three games before the international break......and everyone will be buzzing.
     
  26. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Bit early for this sort of talk .

    Come back when we re in the conference yeah ?

    We can talk about it then .
     
  27. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Reminds of when Howard Kendall blamed the Manchester Evening News getting him the sack and their response was “ we have to print the results “
     
  28. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Lol
     
  29. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Clearly being the biggest club in Hertfordshire is not enough for our new EPL fan base .
     
  30. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    If you had a life jacket you wouldn’t need to tread water , is that not the point of a life jacket ?
     
  31. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Thanks for explaining that. If anyone missed LaClusazSki's point, at least they will understand his exact meaning a lot better now.
     
  32. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    Eventually you will sink.
     
  33. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    One Donkey CB and an untried player, though he does come with a good reputation.
    If the rumours are true that the Pozzo family are looking to sell. The will want to sell as a going concern in the Premiership.
    Staying up is probably financially vital for a great number of clubs in the Premiership .
     
  34. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Your money to waste.
     
  35. Pob

    Pob Reservist

    It is a results business, but Gracia has just led us to one of our best seasons ever against the odds. I do know that results were bad towards the end of the season and I get the concern but still it’s not long ago that Garcia’s stock was high and we all sung about him drinking sangria whilst he was linked to Chelsea.

    I think all the negativity becomes self perpetuating and eventually leads to an inevitable conclusion at a time when supporters should support and get behind the team.

    On a wider note what sort of message does it send out about the kind of people we are and the expectations we have? I’ve firmly indoctrinated my 7 year old son to the Hornet cause. Switching, from idolising someone to vilifying them in a fairly short space of time (3 competitive games effectively) to me sends out a message that’s it is ok to be fickle and spoilt and discard people who don’t immediately meet your expectations. It’s almost Orwellian how Javi can go from “Watford’s Hero” to zero so easily.

    Javi is nice but I don’t think that necessarily makes him weak and ineffectual. And whilst it is a results business I’d still rather have a nice Javi than scowling Quisling like Silva. I don’t think people have to be horrible to be successful and again this applies wider than just the football.

    I too am massively worried and today and Newcastle are crucial games. However, it doesn’t feel like Javi has lost the dressing room or respect of the players as with Mazzarri and possibly Flores so at this stage I don’t think all this speculation is helpful.
     
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