Injury List/Pre-season: The Relationship (Not)

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by CleyHorn, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    First up, I don't reckon there's any relationship between these two things at all. Absolutely zilch.

    However, recently on other threads it's been assumed by a number of others that there is. Which culminated with me having a go at SkylaRose and Chumlax having a go at me. Chumlax asked me a number of questions which I answered in full (a post to which he has yet to respond) and Skyla would appear to still believe in her 'urban myth' around 'what we all know' with her recent post on the Naarch match thread.

    I've no agenda here to 'have a go at' individual posters but would rather explore how an 'utterly b.llocks idea' morphs into an 'urban myth' in which we are all expected to believe and 'all know' and take as 'gospel'. Well, count me out.

    Here is my take on how our current injury list relates to our pre-season (or rather doesn't):

    1. The first injury this season I can remember was Deeney's. A persistent knee-injury that had been in the background for some time, through which he freely admitted he shouldn't have been playing early season when we were all criticising him for not 'putting in a shift'. Required surgery and time off. Nothing to do with 'pre-season'.

    2. Next, the Prodl injury? Well Prodl wasn't even playing prior to Quique's arrival. Therefore it post-dates Quique's arrival which suggests to me that, if there's some generic thing going on here (which there might not be at all), it also post-dates Quique's arrival. And that there was a gap between pre-season and the 'spate of injuries' beginning.

    3. Our current injury list. There are six of them. The Manure currently have eleven:

    - Sarr. Lower leg injury. Due to return after international break. Can't have anything to do with our pre-season seeing as he didn't have a pre-season with us. Injured post Quique's arrival.

    - Cleverley. Heel injury so not a muscle injury. He's had this problem before. Due to return after international break. Injured post Quique.

    - Quina. Groin injury. Sustained at Goodison in the LC. Possible lack of condition associated. Due to return after international break. Injured post Quique.

    - Prodl. See above. Muscle injury. Possible lack of condition associated. But well after pre-season. Due to return after international break. As said, again, injured post Quique.

    - Welbeck. Thigh injury. Injured at Spurs. Possible lack of condition attached. Nothing to do with pre-season though seeing as he didn't have one with us. Longer term - out for 2-3 months plus. He's simply crocked? Post Quique again.

    - Pereyra? Hamstring strain on Friday. Currently 'being assessed'. Possible lack of condition attached (under Quique).

    Now there have been other injuries from which players have already returned. Cathcart, Capoue, Hughes?, Doucoure? Maybe one of those occured pre-Quique? You tell me.

    I don't monitor other sources of info. regarding WFC other than links provided on here. But, as far as I'm aware, the daft idea of a lack of pre-season physical preparation being responsible for our current injury list hasn't been promoted elsewhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

    As far as I can see, all that's happened here is that someone has taken the reasonable association of the Brighton defeat with a poor pre-season, extrapolated that to our injury list and others have picked up on that and repeated it to the point where it's supposedly a truism and a fact in which we're all supposed to believe and which 'we all know'. Whereas it's actually utter b.llocks.

    So count me out. I beg to differ.

    By all means try and convince me otherwise though. If you could point to injuries sustained during Javi's reign this season (and that there was no 'gap') that might help. But I reckon you'll be hard pushed.

    Obviously the professional staff at our club know far more about what's going on on a day-to-day basis. But that shouldn't stop our own speculation which is what this forum is all about. But if we're to have a sensible discussion then it would really help if a social-media sponsored 'urban myth' wasn't required to be treated as 'gospel'.

    I trust I've made my view clear. This 'spate of injuries' may be nothing more than an unhappy coincidence. But if you require to find something more 'deep and meaningful' around it (as many would seem to) then I'd suggest that pointing to a lack of conditioning under Quique's tenure would at least make some sort of sense.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  2. The Recluse

    The Recluse Academy Graduate

    Arguably, Pereyra's involvement with Argentina may have some bearing on his hamstring strain. He's had a lot of long flights in a relatively short space of time which his body isn't used to, or it may have hastened an already underlying issue.

    I don't know if anyone else remembers Graham Taylor trying to get his squad living within a certain radius of Watford because it was thought (at the time - not sure if it's been rubbished since) car journeys over a certain distance after training and matches put undue pressure & strain on certain parts of the body, particularly hamstrings and back, which in turn caused an upturn in injuries of players who lived further away/had longer travelling times. Flights, in Pereyra's case, bring added complications due to air pressure etc.
    EB Hornet and CleyHorn like this.
  3. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    Not sure if it was the moment it happened, but Pereyra went on a little run, then tried to beat one last man and got tackled. As the ball was moving out with a Norwich player you could see Pereyra wildly swing his leg in the background in annoyance. A few minutes later he was down and came off with a hamstring injury in that leg.

    Not really helping with this particular argument (I think) but maybe he hadn’t stretched well enough?
    CleyHorn likes this.
  4. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I don’t think this should be discussed on a forum by anyone without full medical training. State your credentials Cley :)
    lutonh8a and wfcmoog like this.
  5. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look for something beside “bad luck” to blame when we’ve had to make a substitute in the first half due to injury for five consecutive games.

    Whether that’s down to pre-season or not, I don’t know, but it does suggest an underlying problem.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  6. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Had broken right ankle fixed in 1968. Tonsils out in 1972. Got some Anadin+ and elastoplast in the bathroom cabinet.
    EB Hornet, Davidmsawyer and Jumbolina like this.
  7. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    It's not unreasonable to look at all. What is unreasonable is now to consider something as historical as pre-season. By all means point to something under Quique's regime being an underlying cause.
  8. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    You make some valid points. Do you think the age of any of the current squad could also be a telling factor? We all slow down, and get brittle etc that is human nature.

    Are certain players being pushed too hard in this respect? Again my own observation here.
  9. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Fair enough. I’m not basing this on numbers I’ve looked up, but I wonder if the players are being asked to run more under QSF than under Javi?

    I’ll use Man Utd as an example, and the spate of muscular injuries they picked up a few games after José left. It was widely reported that the players were asked to run a great deal more, as backed up by the stats, and their bodies were unable to cope. I believe they also saw several games where players left before HT due to muscle pulls and strains.

    Again, haven’t looked up stats, but I’d imagine that it’s possible our mega-disciplined approach to games has increased the workload on the squad, not just in match day, but during the week as QSF drills his defensive shape into the players.

    I’m not sure that it’s fair to say that the injuries are because pre-season was undercooked, as such, but I do think it’s entirely possible that our pre-season preparation wasn’t intense enough to prepare the players for the way they are being asked to play now.
  10. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Age may indeed be a factor for some. Both young and old. And Quique might be 'pushing them too hard'. Both perfectly valid suggestions.
  11. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    All fine. But surely pre-season is now historical. Quique may indeed just be pushing them too hard now, irrespective of pre-season.
  12. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Historical, yes, but also where the players build/fine tune their base fitness?

    I think you’re perhaps underestimating how specific the fitness plan will be for each individual player, not just during pre-season, but also during the regular season too. If expected work-loads have changed, I suppose it makes sense that we’ve seen injury issues.

    It’s possible that pre-season was fine for the levels required from Javi, but not QSF.

    I suppose point I’m making is not necessarily blaming poor preparation in pre-season, but rather preparation that wasn’t correct for the unexpected circumstances we find ourselves in now under a new manager and a new tactical/training plan.
    The Recluse likes this.
  13. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    I still say that what happened three months ago is now irrelevant. Sure each player should be treated individually. I bet that's what happens. That doesn't mean that Quique's style isn't requiring a general overload and that might indeed be the reason we currently have the injury list we do though.

    Anyway, they're all predicted to be back and available for selection for Burnley apart from Welbeck (and Pereyra??). Plus of course Kabasele has to serve a one match suspension.
  14. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Good enough. Please continue Doctor.
  15. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    I 100% agree. I mean, maybe it is due to the pre-season but there is not any evidence to suggest that. Zip. Also, Gracia was in charge for last season pre-season so how did we dodge the bullet then?
  16. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    This is an interesting point. But are we really getting our players to run so much more than under JG?

    certainly in the games, but maybe in the training?
  17. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    You’re a fool, man. You can get generic versions at a fraction of the price.
    wfcmoog and Davidmsawyer like this.
  18. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I think GT’s line was more that he wanted the players to have a close feeling for the town, area and supporters: an ‘all in it together’ mentality. When he came back in the 90s player power had increased to the extent that he couldn’t make it stick any more, Jason Lee being a prime example.
  19. The Recluse

    The Recluse Academy Graduate

    I'm not sure which period it was when he spoke of the link between travelling after training/matches and injuries but it's something I'm 99.99% certain he did say, I can remember reading it in the Watford Observer and just being so impressed with this kind of forward thinking. At a time when the phrase sports science meant Alan Shepard playing golf on the moon, it just stood out as something incredibly insightful.
    CleyHorn likes this.
  20. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    This GT inspired travel consideration makes perfect sense to me. Now all we have to do is to find out where each player lives, plot their addresses on a map with London Colney at its centre and circles of increasing radii from the training ground and draw our conclusions.

    Seriously though, and in particular, Pereyra flying inter-continental on a regular basis can hardly help. Thrombosis warnings aren't given for nothing. I bet he's not in economy though.

    Car journeys will now be taken in vehicles with better upholstery and suspension. Well mostly. Better to drive a Range Rover than a Lamborghini (hard suspension) then. So we need to know what each player drives as well.
  21. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    I think players are getting injured because QSF is training them harder, as they didn't have a proper full season their bodies aren't used to the intense sessions. The players that have survived are a lot fitter and now able to hold out and put in maximum effort throughout the 90 minutes.
    UEA_Hornet and Knight GT like this.
  22. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Did not read.

    Can someone precis this dissertation?
  23. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

  24. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Good enough for me. Get yourself signed on with the medical team
    CleyHorn likes this.
  25. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    There are of course injuries that happen which are unrelated to anything other than a bit of bad luck or wear and tear but for me we didn't look ready for the start of the season. Most players are naturally very fit but you normally progress that slightly to be match fit during pre season. That is the part I don't feel happened. There are injuries occurring now because now that extra little bit of fitness that they are lacking is making muscles have to work a bit harder hence, the little pulls and niggles. This could also be down to QSF working them harder but I don't know that as a fact. Pereyra's travelling would certainly not help his cause.
    I have no evidence of any of this apart from what I see but we started the season looking a little lackadaisical and even the players admitted we weren't ready. Hopefully these two weeks without a game can allow these players to get back and get that bit fitter because we need everybody at 100%
  26. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    I'd have thought it unlikely that Javi would have made this season's preparation any less demanding than last year's so not sure where all this stuff about players being less fit than 12 months ago comes from. The injuries we've picked up since QSF arrived are just bad luck, I think.
    Davidmsawyer likes this.
  27. Read the "Exective Summary", that's just the first 4 pages. Tells you everything you need to know.
  28. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    It takes just under three minutes to read. The same as for an average newspaper opinion piece. This isn't a character limited twitter blog. Even those now get around the character limit by posting tweets in succession. I recently read a political piece that consisted of 20 tweets in succession. What would you prefer?

    If others can't find three minutes out of their busy schedules to read an o.p. which necessarily demands a deal of evidence to back up its assertion then I really can't help them further.
  29. I don't have 3 minutes. I'm a busy man. That's why I don't read papers, I get all my rounded views on life as a whole from this forum, in the same way as I get all my tangible goods from Amazon or sainsbury online....
  30. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    Very worrying ;)
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