Harefield - What Happened?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by lowerrous, May 25, 2020.

  1. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    How long has the partnership with Harefield Academy been going for now, 12 years?

    Wasn't this going to revolutionise our development of youth players, enabling them to have around 3x as many hours of football coaching per week compared to the six hours that is/was standard at most other academies? Wasn't it going to lead to our youth products rivalling the technical abilities of kids at, say, Ajax?

    It appears that it's still going on, so why haven't we seen any tangible results from it yet in terms an improvement in the quality of our youth players? As far as I can tell it seems Lewis Gordon is the only decent prospect we currently have in the c.18-21 year-old age group who has been through Harefield.

    I'm aware that it is more difficult for players from our academy to break through now given that we have the aim of being an established PL club, but the lack of any homegrown players throughout our latest spell in the PL has been conspicuous.

    Is it that the top PL clubs in the vicinity, e.g. Arsenal and Spurs, are still just continuing to nick all the best local prospects anyway, despite the fact we can theoretically offer them much more coaching time? If so, then are we left just trying to polish mediocre prospects, as it were?
     
  2. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    Sancho came through Harefield and is now one of the highest rate U21s in world football.

    As you say, there doesn't seem to be many success stories but he is certainly one, albeit one we didn't see any benefit of.
     
    lutonh8a likes this.
  3. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    He'd also been with the club already since the age of 7. He then left after being at Harefield for just 3-4 years, so could the Harefield part be said to have even been especially significant in his case playing wise?

    Sancho does say that being a boarder at Harefield did at least help let him focus, and the experience also made it easier for him to later move to Manchester and then abroad:

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/...-vs-borussia-dortmund-champions-league-123394

    So when given testimonials such as Sancho's, why is it that we haven't managed to attract any more players even close to his level of talent to the Academy?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  4. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Clubs like Ajax and River Plate who have two of the best academies in the world have a larger area and numbers to select from and less competition (even in the greater Buenos Aires area with several of the biggest clubs in Argentina based there there are some fifteen million people living there). They also have great links to youth clubs and do not take kids directly into the club if it is not needed. They often just keep an eye on a youngster and let them develop with a youth team they have a good relationship with or coach they know.

    Also the technical training. Some of the coaches in the cantera at River Plate indeed most are all former professionals who have played at a high level but they have no real formal system of qualifications and are happy to let the coaches they know and respect bring on youth. These coaches are often part time and have coached for some 30-40 years at that level so they know talent when they see it and how to nurture it.

    We have so much competition siphoning up talent even on our doorstep in Hertfordshire that we are at a disadvantage from that point of view. It still does not mean we cannot do a better job. Looking around youth teams in the Celtic nations for example or persuading parents that their child will have a better chance with us. However given the lack of opportunity even to players like Wilmot that message hardly rings true. We surely also need better youth coaches and talent spotters so they can work with more talented kids and produce technically better players. Because it is a way of reducing expenses on transfer fees and a source of revenue if we get some players through who impress enough to move onto a bigger stage. And of course it cheers the supporters who like nothing more than a player who has come through the system and perhaps better appreciates the club.

    Coaching I think is still not good enough given that clubs for example in Uruguay with very limited choices manage to turn out very decent players consistently. The club needs to have a look at what they are doing and get their act together because so far it's been a failure in terms of providing first team players.
     
  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    The Pozzos probably haven't invested that much to Harefield in given their usual model of business.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  6. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Indeed, but with Harefield being able to offer kids 3x the training hours I'd have thought it could help give us a competitive edge over those other nearby clubs in attracting talent.

    Though perhaps if as you say the coaches themselves aren't the best then maybe it negates that added benefit too much.
     
  7. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Happy bunny likes this.
  8. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    From what I have read. That is to say players accounts of their upbringing, acquaintances who live in Argentina and some filmed material most youth players (this also applies to Uruguay and Brazil) until they get to the age of 14-15 and the higher grades of the junior branch of their team they do not train intensively and certainly not physically. Rather even if they do go to the formal L'Escuela of River Plate they focus on those kids they select to be able to control the ball and to be able to pass accurately. Small intense sessions in confined spaces with an emphasis in recreational activity to just practice ball control. There is also another emphasis on small sided (in terms of players) football. So 3v3, 2v2, 5v5 to develop situational awareness, see passing lanes and on the other hand how to close as a unit defensively so shutting those lanes and harrying the ball carrier.

    Our methods may not be as up to date either with regards to junior training and when you look at the experience these informal youth coaches have compared to what we have it's a big gap. Coaches like these are able just after a few minutes to pick out a six year old from a group kicking about informally and then develop the better ones. And of course even those that get to the more formal surroundings have to keep on developing. They are assessed regularly. Our academy at the grass roots has a very long way to go before (if we ever do) we see a consistent number of youth players breaking into the first team. I am sure it can be done. But is the will there from the top brass ? Save money by developing our own or buy a kid in from overseas and sell them on if they make it ? I think I know which one most supporters would like to see.
     
  9. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    That affects the amount of compensation we'd receive for players.

    It also might affect which other teams our academy plays against, which would probably be a deterrent if we hardly ever play against the top teams.

    But for coaching hours and number of coaches per player wouldn't it have made pretty much zero difference given that Harefield is slightly separate/added on to the regular academy? With Harefield we should in theory still be able to provide more than double the coaching hours of a category 1 academy?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  10. Harefield was a way for a bottom of the championship club without 2 pennies to rub together to compete by producing players for that level.

    It was a good idea but we've moved way beyond maximising what little talent we can find locally.
     
    Knight GT and The Recluse like this.
  11. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I don’t know, how do the coaching hours compare? I always thought the point was it offered education tailored around regular daytime football coaching. That was novel at a time when other elite academies just concentrated on training in the evenings and really didn’t care what the average academy kid did in school. As I understood it though, education became part of the EPPP requirements and Harefield was no longer unique.

    The club barely mentions Harefield now. Pre-Pozzo it was the main focus, no doubt because we were skint. Search the club website now though and Google throws up a couple of brief mentions in 2017 and something on Lewis Gordon’s profile. That’s it. No big news pieces extolling its virtues or claiming it’s anything special. If the club’s own PR operation can’t be bothered to write puff pieces it suggests it not intended to be a selling point.
     
  12. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Having looked in to the EPPP a bit more, yes you're on to something there.

    With the EPPP, academies which have become Category 1 seem to have jumped from 8 hours per week coaching for 12-16 year-olds, to 12-16 hours per week. When Harefield was set up it was to provide 16-20 hours per week, so the Cat 1 clubs have near enough bridged that gap now to make differences more negligible.

    The general lack of noise any more around Harefield, together with its seeming lack of results, was one of the things which prompted me to start the thread. Even if it has pretty much lost its USP it doesn't alter the fact that one would have hoped it would have had more successes in improving the ability of players, but it does explain why we've probably been losing out on the top local prospects again.
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  13. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    You could probably write a couple of years off as bad luck but I think the only sensible conclusion after 8 years of zero output from the academy means it’s just not part of the owner’s plan. Reading the Harefield Academy prospectus the aim isn’t specifically to produce players for Watford FC - https://www.theharefieldacademy.org/page/?title=Watford+FC+Development+Programme&pid=84. In fact it looks like anyone who comes from that pathway into the academy proper is by luck rather than judgement.
     
  14. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    It probably shouldn't be.

    EPPP has made it pointless to develop young talent. Any promising player can be stolen from under you at a moment's notice. Why bother? For anyone other than the biggest clubs, you end up spending a bunch of money only to see any excellent players you might develop poached for a pittance.

    There's just no point.
     
    hornmeister and wfcmoog like this.
  15. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    That's just for the Sixth Form, 16-18 year-olds.

    Maybe they don't advertise it for 11-15 year-olds? Or they've for some reason ditched it?
     
  16. R4E

    R4E Reservist

    This. EPPP made academies not worth the money for clubs our size. The amount of investment needed to qualify as a Cat 1 academy far outweighs any potential return should a big club poach the best players for the pre agreed fees.
     
  17. reids

    reids First Team

    It's incredibly hard for a PL team to bring players all the way through their academy into the first team setup, as others have mentioned - our proximity and EPPP are also likely significant factors that we're fighting against.

    That being said, George Byers is carving out a good career for himself at Swansea, Luke O'Nien will probably move to the Championship over the summer (if Sunderland don't get promoted) so whilst they didn't make the grade at Watford, there's plenty still making a career in the game which is the most important thing!
     
    Heidar, wfc4ever, Knight GT and 4 others like this.
  18. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Luke O'Nien was at Harefield, George Byers wasn't.

    Gavin Massey at Championship Wigan, and Adam Thompson at Rotherham in League One (who may get promoted) appear to be the two other Harefield graduates playing at a decent level (except for Sancho).
     
  19. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Wasn't a large part of the reason for having Harefield to enable young players to have a balanced education alongside playing football? There will always only ever be a very small handful who make a career at league level (let alone PL), so it acts as a protection for them and they can continue in the real world if they don't make it.
     
    lutonh8a and wfc4ever like this.
  20. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Possoz shut harefield when they sold Lee Hobson.
     
  21. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You forgot to log in to meridensi for that one.
     
  22. reids

    reids First Team

    This seems to suggest he was: https://www.theharefieldacademy.org...Programme+-+Academy+Day+at+Watford+FC&pid=241

    Full list and where they are now:

    Britt Assombalonga: Middlesbrough (Championship)
    Dale Bennett: Sutton Utd (National League)
    Jonathan Bond: West Brom (Championship)
    Jack Bonham: Gillingham (League 1)
    Kurtney Brooks: Can't find his current club but is kicking around non-league
    George Byers: Swansea (Championship)
    Josh Doherty: Crawley (League 2)
    Andrew Eleftheriou: Dagenham + Redbridge (National League)
    Michael Folivi: Still at the club
    Kieron Forbes: Hendon (non-league)
    Billy Gibson: Can't find current club, was last at Wealdstone in 16/17
    Liam Henderson: Maybe at Morpeth Town in non-league.
    Tommy Hoban: No club at present.
    Lee Hodson: Gillingham in L1 (at St Mirren on loan in the SPL)
    Alex Jakubiak: Still at the club (at St Mirren on loan)
    Ross Jenkins: Retired but is coaching at Oxford City in National League South
    Rob Kiernan: Orange County(USL - in America )
    Brandon Mason: Coventry (League 1)
    Gavin Massey: Wigan (Championship)
    Bernard Mensah: Gloucester City (National League South)
    Piero Mingoia: Borehamwood (National League)
    Sean Murray: Dundalk (League of Ireland)
    Luke O'Nien: Sunderland (League 1)
    Eddie Oshodi: Hendon (non-league)
    Dion Pereira: Atlanta Utd (MLS)
    Connor Smith: Wealdstone (National League)
    Marvin Sordell: Retired
    Carl Stewart: Piast Żmigród (Polish 3rd division)
    Adam Thompson: Rotherham (League 1)
    Matty Whichelow: Kings Langley (non-league)
    Lewis Young: Crawley (League 2)
     
  23. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    How random, seems he went to a 2nd division team in Poland before dropping down to the third tier. I wonder how the original move to Poland came around.

    He was our youth player who briefly joined Udinese's academy too so he is getting well-travelled if nothing else.
     
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Hm, fair enough.

    That list does seem a bit odd though, for one thing Henderson must have been about 18 already when the Harefield partnership was started. Plus, it seems to list basically every single Watford academy graduate since Harefield was set up that earned a professional contract either with us or elsewhere - could they really all have gone to Harefield? Or at least, would they really have all been there full time?

    In fact, the only Watford academy graduate who turned pro I can immediately think of from that time frame who isn't listed there is Jadon Sancho, and he even went as far as being a boarder at Harefield.
     
  25. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Didn't Tommy Hoban go to Aberdeen or am I thinking of someone else?
     
  26. reids

    reids First Team

    He did but think that was a loan (or a short term deal) until the end of the 18/19 season, but doesn't look like he signed permanently. Transfermarkt and Soccerway (along with wiki) say he's currently without a club
     
  27. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Isn't he injured sadly ?
     
  28. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    He got injured playing for Aberdeen whilst on loan from us, was let go at the end of his contract with us (July 2019) is now back fit and was on trial at Aberdeen trying to earn a new contract when lockdown came into being!
     
    reids likes this.

Share This Page