'Harassment' and 'bullying' of Brexit voters in Politics section.

Discussion in 'This Site' started by Ghost of Barry Endean, Nov 4, 2017.

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  1. It is not harassment. If brexiteers can't engage with the debate without feeling personally slighted, then maybe they should stay away or 'suck it up'.
    It is neither bullying or harassment to present arguments. The level of personal insults has been remarkably low ,other than the assumed insult of being on the opposite side of the argument - if I say Brexit is idiotic, you construing that to mean I have called you an idiot is your problem; if we point out that Leavers are statistically more likely to be less educated and older and from less skilled jobs, then you construing that to mean we have called you less educated is your problem; when we say that racists are self-evidently more likely to have voted leave, you construing that as we have called you a racist is your problem.

    I hope this is on the appropriate section.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  2. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I also wanted to respond to something you said in that post @Meister. I noted that insults often fly in the football part which are just as bad as in the Politics section. You said that these could be reported. I don’t do that for the simple reason that I think we are all adults and, frankly, can take a bit of flak. Generally speaking these things do blow over and people make up. Indeed, that happened yesterday when Kelso and RC made up, on a different thread, for the insults traded on the sexual harassment thread. Yet you closed that thread down, presumably because of those insults and presumably because you were unaware that they had made up elsewhere on the forum. That seemed excessive to me - the topic had generated some interesting debate and even some agreement between Moose and ZZ (!). Something similar happened a few months back between Sting and ZZ and Sting has now left the forum as a consequence, which is a shame as he was an interesting and articulate poster.

    There are times when people do go over the top and you rightly remove those posts. But at the end of the day we are adults and we can take a bit of ribbing and disagreement. That seems to me to be the nature of the vast majority of what goes on in the Politics forum. I certainly don’t think it’s “harassment”. That word implies to me something in the way of a sustained campaign of bullying of a particular poster, and I assume that was what the Rules were designed to capture. On Brexit, some people dish it out and some dish it back. At the risk of belabouring the point - we are all adults and we can take it.
    Happy bunny and Meister like this.
  3. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    It is in the appropriate section.

    The odd post here or there is tolerable. When it's day in day out for the last 18 month it's bullying and harassment. Unless you're on the end of it you're not necessarily going to see it.

    At the end of the day, the forum is run by the agreed rules and by the staff as they see fit. Members understand and agree to that before posting here. Forum staff have the final say with respect to moderating decisions and do not need to explain themselves, however I always try to and also recommend to other staff that they do to as it helps reduce repeat offences. Members can disagree with the rules, that is their right, but they don't have a right to ignore them.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  4. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    The sexual harassment thread descended into a personal argument. Don't forget that some of the posts will have already been removed so you're not judging on all of the data. I didn't have the time to go through and clean it all up after warnings. It got dragged way off topic and I tried to restart it by reposting the original post as I think it was an interesting and important topic. Unfortunately the petulant responses to the moderation mean the subsequent thread had to be dumped also. A huge shame as it was an interesting topic for a while. I admit it I gave up.

    We are but, after 18 months of thinly veiled abuse going into the politics section makes me miserable. I hate having to moderate it but I have a list of people who've left because of the attitudes in there and I stand by my decisions. I also have to think twice about posting simply because I know the sort of responses I'm going to get and that's wrong.
    As I always say, I'll explain why a decision has been made, but can't enter into discussion into the rights/wrongs of that decision. A lot of what is done is to prevent things getting more serious. I have a decade of moderating experience here and 20 years similar professional industry experience. Sometimes preventative action needs to be take that from the outside can seem overzealous. I understand that and that's what I;m trying to explain to others
  5. Tolerable? To whom?

    1. It's not day in and day out - it might seem like that to you but the latest brexit thread has been dormant for days at a time until something else comes up in the news.
    2. Nobody is 'on the end of it'. You are not 'on the end of it'. ZZ is not 'on the end of it', unless you self-identify totally and uniquely with the concept of Brexit. It is not having a go at anyone for their colour, gender, sexual orientation, weight or anything else. It is arguing a political point- the most important matter to this country and future generation for decades - which is still ongoing. Which you can agree with, disagree with, or change your mind about. Debate about an election might be expected to die down after that election, but this subject is not going anywhere for at least 18 months, probably at least 2 years after that. Seriously, what would be a tolerable number of posts on the subject per day/week/month?

    I'm not trying to pick a fight here, honestly, but I just can't let some of the stuff you say go unchallenged! If you feel bullied, you are being bullied by events and the news, not by three or four posters on a football forum.
  6. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    If someone is told to stop doing something because it's not liked and that person carries on because they don't understand why the victim doesn't like it. Is it right or wrong to expect the victim to keep explaining to the bully why it should stop until the bully is satisfied its the wrong thing to carry on?
    Do you feel it's right to break a law simply because you disagree with that law?

    It is a members responsibility to abide by the rules and direction of forum staff. If members disagree with that they can go elsewhere.

    I'm saying that remainers are harassing brexiters. They have been for months and months. I'm saying forum rules are being broken and members are leaving / not joining because of it. I've asked it to stop for the good of the forum. I don't have to convince people it's the right decision. It's the decision. Members can either stop it or go elsewhere.

    If you can't see how toxic the politics section has become then I don't think I have the skills to convince you so I'm asking you nicely accept it, post with a little dignity and move on or go elsewhere.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
    iamofwfc likes this.
  7. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

  8. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I agree with Bwood. It’s the nature of the beast. I really don’t see that the Politics forum is any more toxic now than it was a year ago. Of course there is lots about Brexit but that’s perfectly understandable because it is, as GOBE says, the most important and divisive issue for many a generation.

    As for posters leaving because of it - why don’t they just ignore it? Plenty of people only ever post in the football part as it is.
  9. I rarely engage in politics on here now beyond the odd comment because the whole Brexit subject on here is toxic and spiteful

    Personally I'd just ban the subject completely and let posters go find other political forums to vent their spleens
  10. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Can Meister and GOBE not sort their **** out over PM? Isn't that what's suggested in the actual football forums of this site?
  11. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    No because the issue is forum wide, not restricted to a single member.
  12. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Seems pretty personal to me.
  13. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    You are mistaken then. The originator of the latest issue wasn't gobe.
  14. It is absolutely not personal. I have no problem with Meister (apart from he doesn't go to games - sort yerself out man) in fact the opposite. We get on pretty well outside the cauldron of the Politics section. If you want personal, try looking closer to home GD. You will happily attack posts because of who has made them in the football section; I have had much worse spats with HB1 and highgrade in the football sections than I have ever had in the politics section; loads of posters are well known to be sworn enemies of each other and it gets a lot more personal than it ever does in the politics section.

    You might note that the only people complaining about a toxic atmosphere are staunch Leavers. There are a few in the section, and to be fair to ZZ he dishes it out and can take it; I don't understand who Meister thinks is being bullied. Surely the way to shut the remoaners up is with convincing arguments. I do get fed up with the persistent messages from Meister that he will shut the section down if we don't behave when TBH it is a lot less personal and toxic than the regular sections.
    Keighley and Meister like this.
  15. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Perhaps the solution is to create a 'harassment and bullying' subsection.
    Witneyellow and kVA like this.
  16. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    I agree with Meister .... being constantly reminded that you made a monumental fck up in the referendum is probably not a very nice feeling.

    We need more sunlit uplands and free unicorns on this forum.
  17. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    Which is a perfect example of the constant sniping day after day which finally grinds people down. In isolation it appears harmless.
  18. Liked because GF should have some dignity!
  19. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

  20. Meister

    Meister Administrator Staff Member

    Thread done yet?
  21. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Nope. I'm a bit puzzled as to why the Brexiteers are complaining about being bullied. Seems to me that the aggro goes both ways and is pretty evenly distributed
  22. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    What or who was it then?
  23. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    I like flippant comments! It bring a bit of reality to the thread.
  24. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    Got to agree and often enjoy God Father’s posts.

    There are several pro-remainders who I consider very hardline and argue viciously. I can only think of ZZ who argues the other way, we all know he is quite as robust in his arguements. He takes a lot of abuse from multiple posters, he rarely gets back up, but he can give it out although I think plays for it a bit. Brexit abuse, and the fact that I’m not as up on current affairs in general at the moment keeps me from posting here.
    Banjo and iamofwfc like this.
  25. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    I don’t think that comments like ‘suck it up’ and your repeated ‘it’s your problem’ encourage a range of people to post. In this post you come across condescending, bigoted and not even willing to try to understand other people’s point of view. If only everybody was as intelligent and well educated as you, maybe Brexit would never have been a problem. Thing is would there be enough high level jobs for us all?
    Banjo, iamofwfc and Meister like this.
  26. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think the issue is the Remainers tend to arrive on threads as a collective and all pitch in whereas often there's just the odd Brextieer either making a point or defending the latest news. ZZ seems to enjoy it, or at least doesn't dislike it enough to stop, whereas none of the others do. So I suppose it could be perceived as bullying to keep responding in the same way to them. I'd personally say that's a couple of steps further along the line than the actual reality but I can at least understand why meister has raised the concept.

    I was very involved in the debates on here before the Brexit referendum and immediately afterwards. Now I've slowly withdrawn so unless I see anything that really catches my fancy I don't tend to want to spend time debating the ins and outs of a decision that's done. I don't think that applies to everyone and some seem to relish re-living June 2016 in perpetuity.

    What I have enjoyed - and learned a lot from on here - are the conversations about and perceptions different people have of the progress that's being made towards Brexit. Those discussions have got tasty occasionally and yes, sometimes a bit overly personal. I'm guilty of it at times but aim it at those who tend to give it back in spades and who at least give the impression they take it for what it is (harmless). But mainly there are people on both sides who post some really interesting stuff (either personal views, experiences or links to elsewhere) which often give me food for thought. And I've never seriously been upset by a thing posted on here. It'd be a shame to have to shut down all conversation about it, or even close the section, just because some on the outside looking in think it looks a bit unseemly.
  27. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    Agree with this totally.

    I don’t remember the tone of the posts on here prior to the referendum but the battle from the official remain side was absolute garbage. Project fear again. I imagine that any undecided voters just dismissed it as politicians wanting the status quo to protect their precious gravy train. There were no arguements explaining what the EU had actually done for the UK and the out campaign shouted loudest and connected with people. The average person only had to use their own experience to guide them, which is why people from the left and right voted out. I know of intelligent people with very good jobs and businesses who opted out out as well as ‘thickies’ with ‘shiit’ jobs. Now it’s an absolute mess and the main outers have completely retreated.

    There was a post ‘Brexit, have you change your mind’. Who the Fck would reply with yes, I voted out, now I wouldn’t. A virtual linching would take place!
  28. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    In one line you sum up your position on this subject but ironically it is you who should stay away. The first line tells me that you are unwilling to entertain any discussion whatsoever. It seems that you started this thread for a row and yes, I appear to be obliging.
  29. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    You're all ****s. Get over it.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  30. I started this thread as a direct request from Meister to move discussion about moderating from the politics section.
    'Suck it up' was a tongue in cheek reference to what Leavers have been telling Remainers to do since last June.
    From your last sarky couple of lines it appears that you too have taken personally political arguments against, or evidence that stands contrary to, your chosen position. "Don't call me a racist". "Don't call me unintelligent".

    Meister can you close this thread now as we are completely off the topic of moderating. (It does however demonstrate why the politics section is a useful containment area!)
  31. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    Your post didn’t give me much of a feeling that you wished to discuss forum moderating. I do like the irony of wanting the thread closed because it doesn’t go the way you want though!

    I can see how you might think that I have taken it personally but I assure you I haven’t. The comments I made were just a cheeky dig back.

    To get back to harassment and bullying, people need to realise that it is the the person who feels victimised that decides when they feel they’re being harrassed, not the person doing the harassing.
  32. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    You can't have a discussion about moderating without discussing what make the moderating so difficult as there are two sides to the argument.

    I think everyone could help the situation. But I think that depends on the sort of Forum we want. If we want an outlet to express our pent up frustrations with insults and abuse, then there is probably nothing we can do. But if we want to debate properly, then we can all do something to help, but I think it needs a willingness to be more self aware (including myself, see later).

    If posters responded to the points made in the post rather than the poster, then moderating would be so much easier. Often I have made a reasonable post, "reasonable" meaning that I have not personally attacked anyone, not just made claims without explaining my evidence or thoughts and reasons behind hat I have said, merely to be met with replies that do not even mention any specific points I have raised but range from " F*** off, you **** " (and I have not experienced anything like that sort of treatment in real life for about 35 years since I was undercover in the Inter City Firm), to "You this, you that, you whatever". Neither response is an invitation to debate or discuss and just winds people up. As we all know, that sort of tactic is usually used to deflect from the issue raised as they have no coherent argument with it.

    Half the time I think the responder hasn't even read my post, and is just responding to to the fact that I usually oppose their own opinions, so they just wade in. That isn't entering in to any sort of debate or discussion, and when others willingly jump in, or just keep quiet (even when they know it is out of order) it is a form of bullying or intimidation that hinders a proper debate and it persuades others not to join in.

    If I am guilty of doing exactly this myself (and I probably am), then I am quite happy if others point it out at the time. I have often been accused of "starting" a personal slanging match but no one actually quotes my post where that happened. I want them to do that, and if I can see that I have done so, I will apologise.

    But "pointing out" transgressions need to be done in the right non aggressive way. Quoting the post with a comment such as "Please address the points I have raised" would be sufficient. If the initial post or thread is not worth responding too, then don't respond!

    If everyone else accepted the same sort of self monitoring or accept that our posts can be disruptive to a debate, then we could get back to the sort of discussions that most of us previously enjoyed.
    Banjo, iamofwfc and Meister like this.
  33. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    Good post.

    This forum needs to get back to a stage where people can make points without feeling they’ll be abused. If posters want an abusive forum I’m sure they can find an far left or far right forum elsewhere in the internet and argue against them.

    Many of the types of responses in this section have put me of posting here since I joined. I think it’s because people can’t back down from their position and occasionally need to step back and say do you know what, I can see your point’

    So, are there times when you feel you are being hounded by posters on this section?
  34. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Yes, I do, but often that is because I am so outnumbered. I think those that argue with me the most tend to stick together more than those on a similar side to me. I often find myself disagreeing with my closest allies and them with me, where as the other side rarely disagree with each other on anything, preferring to keep quiet in supposedly united front. But that isn't a criticism, as much as one of the reasons why it can sometimes seem like hounding and bullying. Often I the only one against a number of others. The recent BBC argument was a good example of just that. Pre and post referendum there has only been a few pro brexiters on here. Yet when there were polls on those subjects, they show that we are far from isolated on the forum, as they tend to show quite a good balance. So I think that the stick I get puts others off from identifying with me and/or joining in. I know for sure that happens as they have told me privately.

    So, I am not personally upset about the "hounding", or abuse but I do get annoyed that as soon as it starts it will invariably take the discussion off the issue being discussed and no one says anything about the attempts to make it personal in the first place. I am certain that the tactic of going personal is a deliberate tactic employed to divert the thread away from an uncomfortable subject. If I complain, my adversaries suggest that is me "crying" about it, but I am not crying at all, I just get frustrated at the way the thread gets moved away from the points I am making, or the thread subject.
    Banjo, iamofwfc and Meister like this.
  35. J.B

    J.B First Team

    ''Closest allies''

    I get the feeling that the one person who that awful section's long overdue closure would benefit the most is zztop himself. Beyond pathetic
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