Grenfell Tower - Public Enquiry & Panorama

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, May 22, 2018.

  1. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    The testimonies from the families have been heart breaking.

    Last night's Panorama confirmed that the cause of the fire and all those deaths was money. The dirty dollar. Skinning a ha'penny and making that extra little bit of additional profit. That's all it was.

    The materials used for the cladding had never been tested together. The company flogging them lied about them being suitable for use on tower blocks. They got a fire safety certificate by adding extra fire retardant materials and then removed them again when they sold them to the public. They specifically pitched for the Grenfell contract knowing that the stuff was cheap, untested rubbish, but they didn't care because it meant more profit.

    All the way along the road, the "sirs in suits" chose to cut, slash and squeeze every last penny, because that was what was important to them - not people lives.

    Although I obviously know that capitalism is outdated, cruel and callous, could there be a clearer example of what would appear to be straightforward contemptuous scorn for the poor people who lived in that place and others like it? Even I was shocked.

    What have capitalism's apologists got to say about this?
     
  2. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    Sadly it comes as no surprise whatsoever that the tragedy happened because of cold-hearted capitalist greed. It would also not surprise me if those responsible eventually escape justice because of loopholes their equally greedy lawyers dig up from some never-used 18th century statute.

    The fire was about a year ago yet there are still homeless families housed in hotel rooms. What actually has happened to the millions donated by the public specifically for the victims and their families? Held in some 'trust' whilst the council and the government push the blame on to others?

    Despicable.
     
    Moose likes this.
  3. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Everybody is to blame for the society we live in and this includes the capitalist state of things. I wouldnt hold your breath if you are expecting anything to change anytime soon though. People are too busy staring into their eye phones and being mentally controlled through life invader and other social media **** to care about the world around them.
     
  4. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    I drove past it the other day. It's a chilling sight. Leaving it in its current state to serve as a monument to greed seems like a good idea to me, like that wrecked building they kept in hiroshima.
     
  5. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Yes but wasn't Megan's dress pretty? She's got Diana's old ring you know! And that Reverend eh? And all the people there like Becks and Corden and Clooney!
     
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  6. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Lying about the safety of materials isn't capitalism, it's pure greed - and may even be manslaughter.
     
  7. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    One of the biggest tragedies regarding this awful event is the official death toll of 72. There were a number of videos posted on YouTube during the days immediately after the tragedy by residents who survived and people who lived opposite and in the general vicinity of the tower.

    Everyone of them said the same thing - that there were hundreds of "illegals" living throughout the building, and their deaths were being kept quiet for a number of different reasons.

    One group had a brother who was part of the fire brigade that entered the building during the end of the blaze - he'd told them that in one room near the top, there were over 40 dead bodies (not that they all lived together, but where they'd been beaten back to by the smoke and heat). The video went on to say that all members of the fire brigade involved are under strict orders not to speak about the true horrors of what they really saw.

    Within three or four days of this series of videos being posted, they were all removed. The folk in the videos were absolutely adamant that the number of dead was somewhere between 350-400 (again, estimate via the member of the fire brigade and what he'd seen).
     
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    So one the biggest tragedies is an almost baseless conspiracy theory that doesn't stand up to more than basic scrutiny? Really? It's this sort of thing which does the whole thing a disservice and switches normal people off from listening to the important stuff which will come out of this inquiry.
     
  9. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    I know, how people can say that people in authority lie about anything is beyond me......
     
  10. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    You don't have to choose to believe it - but the people in the videos were incredibly emotional, so if they were acting they were very convincing. Then the videos were all removed, which is always suspicious. They (the videos) were also from separate groups of people, indicating the same information from multiple sources.

    Despite what any official government dept. claim - it was and still is widely known that there were far more people living in the tower than the official records showed/show. Again - the locals in and around the tower said as much (and you can still find some of those videos on YouTube where they speak about the huge number of folk who were living there illegally).

    My point regarding one of the biggest tragedies was based on - if true - and I can't prove it is, a very high number of people suffering the double injustice of losing their loved ones, and then being denied the chance to have their testimonies heard (or the deaths recognised at all).

    I believe it's far less plausible to think that the government hasn't covered up the true death toll because a much higher number makes the tragedy even more shocking; and admitting that large numbers of illegal immigrants had been living there opens up another huge can of worms for them.

    But I deliberately choose not to partake in any political discussions on this forum as they always inevitably end up in hostile disagreement, so I'll leave this topic be. The people I saw in the videos were certainly convincing enough to lead me to believe what they said.
     
  11. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think what is being suggested here is somewhat more than lying.

    I'm not knocking you personally. You didn't invent this thing and just happened to be the first to post it on this thread. But at least balance it by considering:

    - What's really gained by admitting 72 deaths (a horrendous and inexcusible number) rather than whatever figure the videos you're referring to suggest? The culpability doesn't really go up whether it's 72 or 372. It's still a massive amount of deaths.
    - People do go out, even at night.
    - People in the country illegally are much less likely to have gone to the authorities subsequently.
    - How good are these witnesses at counting? If 10 different people see the same person once each are there now 10 people added to the list of the missing or 1?
    - It's known the same missing people got reported multiple times to the authorities. And that's aside from the scammers jumping on board.
    - What happened to all the bodies? Who moved them and disposed of them? How are they all being controlled and kept from speaking out?
    - How many people would need to be in on something like this to plan and execute it? How are they all being kept quiet? And has all the proof now been destroyed?
    - Do you really think the government is that efficient?

    Honestly, it has all the classic hallmarks of a conspiracy theory. The videos were probably taken down by the people who put them up just to add to the hype.
     
  12. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    A couple of points I don't understand.

    Why would the government want to hide the fact that there were loads of illegals in the flats? It is they that say we have an illegal immigrant problem that stretched our housing stock and infrastructure - and others that deny or saying it isn't a problem worth worrying about. This would strengthen their arguments for toughening up - particularly on landlords eager to cash in through overcrowding their stock.

    https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/y...for-landlords-who-rent-to-illegal-immigrants/

    Secondly, I don't understand who is being denied the right to have their testimonies heard? Surely anybody had the opportunity over several months to "claim" a friend or relative was in the building for certain. If they chose not to, then what can the authorities do?
     
  13. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    All good points, and I certainly can't refute them all. I can only refer back to the videos which sadly are no longer available - the folk in them were very, very convincing. They also complained about being censored when they tried to say the same things to the many journalists that turned up to report on the tragedy.

    To sum up - I can't prove they were telling the truth, but I believed what I was hearing from them due to the emotion they were telling it with. And my gut instinct when I hear anything official from any government source is mostly how much are they lying and what are they hiding, due to the many times in the past they've been caught out not necessarily acting with the public's best interest.
     
  14. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    I'm getting more involved in this now than I wanted to, but to try to answer your questions - the government (whichever party has been in power) has for years denied the true number of illegal immigrants in the country. Only recently have they started to admit that the number of illegals is far higher than what was originally believed. The last Home Office estimate in 2001 gave the figure of around 430k - it's now probably over a million.

    Such an increase suggests that the current immigration system isn't working properly, which of course doesn't reflect well on whoever the occupying party is. Factor in other scaremongerings such as a large number of these immigrants are terrorists here to do us harm, and you can see why keeping the official number lower than it actually is, is beneficial to those in power. They need to be seen to have the issue under some kind of control.

    Admitting to such a large number living in one building is further proof that they don't have the issue under control, and many people will say/believe that similar numbers are no doubt hiding throughout every similar property. The fact that this building was then tragically burnt to a cinder with people inside - the horror escalates the higher the death toll rises. If the government via whatever department are found to be responsible in any way regarding the cladding/cost cutting measures etc, then they would have more deaths on their hands than what the official number states.

    Regarding people being denied the right to testimonies - this was based on the assumption that there were more deaths than what was confirmed (and I accept this cannot be proven and could very well not be true). If this was the case, then you couldn't give a testimony for somebody that wasn't acknowledged as having died in the tragedy due to them having been an illegal immigrant and there being no record of their existence. Nobody would have actually been told "no, you can't give a testimony".

    If there were such examples (of illegals perishing in the blaze), the families would have suffered the loss of their relative(s), as well as having no opportunity to speak about them like those from the official death toll of 72, because as far as official records go - they were never there.
     
  15. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    With the greatest respect Jossy, it does like a load of old bollox.
     
  16. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Eyewitnesses are incredibly unreliable, almost notoriously so. Look at the differences of accounts given in the Michael Brown shooting for no better example.

    No reason to treat it as anything more than just another conspiracy theory at this point.
     
  17. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Maybe traumatic for those who live nearby. But at least it seems that the local people will decide what happens to the site.

    Rillington Place, where the Christie murders took place, was only 100m from the tower. That’s now a memorial garden, I believe.
     
  18. Aberystwyth_Hornet

    Aberystwyth_Hornet Squad Player

    My only thoughts are Grenfell must not be allowed to be another Hillsborough where victims and families of victims are forced to fight the authorities unnecessarily for answers and justice over a pro long period.

    All of us, regardless of political views surely would be united on that? It would also be nice if political parties avoided point scoring and just did whatever is right to fix the wrongs
     
  19. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Thanks for explaining what you meant Jossy.

    However, I dont actually think you are right regarding the a motive for the government to cover this up. It doesn't make sense to me, and I also think that it is such a public scandal that trying such a stunt would be impossible to keep quiet and it would blow up in their faces.

    As for your last point, if there really are hundreds of bereaved relatives who are keeping the existence of their "now dead" illegals quiet, then that is their choice. The relatives would hold the key to identifying any remains via DNA as they would otherwise be unknown to the authorities, what else can the authorities do? Again, if the authorities have found remains of hundreds of bodies, as yet unidentified via DNA, then I could not see how they could possibly suppress that information - this has all gone far to public, in my opinion.

    No, sorry, I think it is nonsense.
     
  20. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    A conspiracy to hide the number of dead is simply too big to sustain. Too many people would know something. It’s also for too little gain or maybe no gain at all.

    Also the people who do the forensic counting and investigations in these situations are pretty untouchable. Their jobs would be meaningless without their independence. They are not going to ignore evidence nor keep a mass secret. The UK State is not totalitarian and does not require it.

    The way in which justice is denied in the UK (on the occasions it is) is much more in the open. So in the case of the Stockwell shooting, the Police openly lied about details (like he jumped the barrier), but the chain of command can demonstrate that everyone was following their role, just that the intelligence (like Iraq) was wrong. The dissembling was done by unattributable ‘sources’ and that it was simply ‘misinformed’. Prove it otherwise.
     
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It is very shocking to see close up. I think it has to go, it’s simply too much to bear. It’s also one of the first sights visitors to the UK driven into Central London or taking the Tube see.
     
  22. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    I can see a reason why there might be a cover up; with brexit, immigration and the various sub topics, the debate could get ugly, generate hate talk and hate crime, increase security risk from the "mob" and distract from the real issue of why a building can be so unsafe.

    However I think as others have mentioned, theres a myriad of reasons why this isnt likely or possible.

    Regards eye witness accounts, when the fire was still raging it was thought hundreds could be inside trapped. I dont doubt people outside were genuine in what they thought and were emotional.
     
  23. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Is it? It's right outside Latimer Road tube station on the Hammersmith to Baker St. section of the Met. line and close to the A40 rather than the M4/A4. So not close to the preferred routes in from Heathrow then which are M4/A4 and Piccadilly line.
     
  24. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Good point well made. West London not my strong point. And not the best argument either. I think it’s simply too horrible to keep standing.
     
  25. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    I agree. I made a point of getting off at Latimer Road one evening when I was travelling that line and taking a quiet walk around it. Eerie really. A 'from the top down' demolition (no explosives) and a memorial garden would be best I think.
     
  26. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Sorry to correct you but I believe those took place at The Vicarage and on the Orient Express.
     
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  27. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    You appear to have tripped here.

    I was, of course, referring to Linford Christie who 'murdered' his opponents on the track at the nearby White City & beyond.
     
  28. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    I had a conversation with a female on Facebook who claimed that not only was the fire started deliberately by "people in government".. but that the fire service stood back for an hour and watched it burn. She wasnt the only one suggesting this either.
    It scares me that people can believe such extreme conspiracy theories and how much people think that the government (or whoever) is out to get them. Common sense suspended.
     
    Diamond likes this.
  29. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Did she also claim the firefighters sprayed petrol rather than water from their hoses?
     
  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    And that helicopters were sent to fan the flames and give people false hope?
     
  31. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It is extraordinary that people have not yet been rehoused. Another scandal in plain sight.
     
  32. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    Yep, I get the impression I might be in a minority here! But just to be clear - I'm not somebody who's big in to "conspiracy theories" - my original post on this was raised based on the YouTube videos of surviving tower residents and those from neighbouring properties.

    They were very convincing, and certainly sounded credible - especially the one who's brother was in the fire brigade and attended the blaze. Unfortunately they're removed now so I can't get you to see for yourselves. If they were crisis actors (or whatever these people are called), then they were very good ones.

    Like Aberystwyth_Hornet mentions above - lets just hope those genuinely affected receive the necessary help, whatever that entails.
     
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  33. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Why have these videos been removed? Who's removed them?
     
  34. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Same people who think 9/11 and the like were an inside job?
     
  35. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    It was. There's this video on YouTube...
     

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