Gracia Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by GoingDown, Apr 7, 2018.


Should JG go?

  1. Yes, now?

    42 vote(s)
  2. No? He deserves a chance to get us out of the championship?

    1 vote(s)
  3. Not yet. If we lose to Newcastle?

    28 vote(s)
  4. If we are bottom at Christmas?

    7 vote(s)
  5. If we go 10 games without a win?

    13 vote(s)
  1. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    He's now got the caretaker job at Northampton and has one eye on the job full time.
  2. I thought Dean Austin was a man barely alive
    Hairyfrog, Jossy and wfcmoog like this.
  3. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    But now he is Bionic ;) (and I do no it was Steve)
  4. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    If Austin was to rejoin, I wonder if his first words when looking at our medical department would be "we can rebuild him"? I'm not sure we have the technology at London Colney.....
  5. Vicarage Road

    Vicarage Road Reservist

    I like Gracia as a person, who doesn’t? He came to Watford with a good reputation as a technical tactician, so far we’ve seen little evidence of this. In games so far, he’s not been very proactive, or more alarmingly, reactive, such as yesterday after going behind.
    I’m still in hope he’ll be here next season, after given a half decent defensive unit to work with.
  6. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    I cannot see Gracia being better or worse than any other manager the Pozzos can tempt here. After four Prem managers you have to start putting more thought to the type of players we have. A successful team needs people who sweat blood for the club. Put in some effort and care. How many of the current squad fit that bill. While they know that managers come and go and they are immune they won't give a monkeys. In fact best bet for them is long term minor injury - get paid and do even less - and many of them seem to have realised that and don't rush back into the side. We do not have a captain. I am not sure we have more than one or two players who care about results. The Pozzos may need to rethink what sort of backbone their team needs to have.
  7. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    Could we perhaps not just give him a little more time, say the rest of the season before we twist?

    He isn’t a treacherous snake and humans have the capacity to learn.

    It’s a new league for him. He started in an awful position, with an injured squad with a poor defence and attack.

    He has made some mistakes which we can all see with hindsight; maybe he has also seen these
  8. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    He did a job to keep us up and he's done it. Don't know what he's been teaching the defence on the training ground though. Coz they aren't listening.

    Whether he's the man for next season I dunno. He may get sacked at some point like most managers of ours.
  9. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    Tend to agree. There is something toxic at the club. It isn't Gino, I don't know about the other directors but Gino would dispense of them if they were. It isn't the coach(es), even Silva aside. They have pretty much all coached bigger clubs than Watford successfully and their life is on the line far more than any other individual at the club...I do believe their every waking moment is how to win the next game. That only really leaves the players, those who get paid the most and have literally the least to lose.
    It's a big juggling act no question, getting not just players good enough but ones that buy into the Watford ethos who can work with whichever incumbent coach we have but we seemed to manage it far more successfully in the Championship. Then the players actually enjoyed playing, and playing for us, and the results mirrored that.
    I wish it could be that easy to get Forestieri, Vydra, Ighalo et al back at their best, not just best skill but best everything else that only Gomes seems to possess these days.
    I think there is no is only going to be the fun of being a big club in the Championship or one of the 13 clubs in a dire melee in the lower part of the PL
    I'm sure it comes across as defeatist but I can't see much beyond than the entitlement international players from mediocre countries (such as Austria, Greece and wherever else mentioned before) feel they deserve by playing in the PL.
    In short I think it's only in the Championship we can attract the players we want and play the type of football we want to see...but if it's the riches of the PL you want..then expectations need to be reassed, a lot.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  10. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I wouldn’t place Gino and Toxic anywhere near each other. But it’s hard on this forum to criticise him without getting accused of being ungrateful or forgetting what he has done for the club. In saying that, it’s a strange sense of pergatory. I have no doubt if we win 2 more games but get hammered in the rest, this season will still be hailed by those at the club as our most successful yet. But you go on to say if it isn’t the owners, board or coaching staff then it must be a certain clique of players. I wouldn’t disagree. But who buys the players? And who dishes out new contracts to them, some of which are undeserved?

    I’m happy to afford Gracia more time but there has to be a willingness between now and the end of the season for him to show he can change things and be pro-active. I’m happy for his audition to go on but he’s failing at the minute to stay beyond the seasons end.
  11. TringOrn

    TringOrn First Year Pro

    Unbelievable. I'm as pissed off as anyone about what happened yesterday and what happened last week, but it is down to a ridiculous lack of recruitment in the defence that has led to our ridiculously lop-sided team. It doesn't matter how well we play, and how well we pass the ball around, because more often that not we're going to throw games away like we have done on countless occasions this season.

    It's all well and good dropping Holebas, but Zeegelaar is just as bad and has made a lot of big mistakes in the few games that he has played in. Janmaat is extremely poor defensively, and our other RB is playing very well as a right winger so we don't have any other options there. Mariappa has been alright but his impact has been vastly exaggerated mainly due to how woeful our other defenders have been. If we start next season with Mariappa as CB then we're in a lot of trouble. Kabasele has improved a lot but we need to invest heavily in our defence over the summer.

    It doesn't help that all 3 of our strikers are amongst the worst in the division too. Yes our midfield is probably the best in the league outside the top 6 and maybe Leicester but when you've got a completely static Deeney playing in front of three very good attacking midfielders then it's a complete and utter waste. We need a more balanced squad next season and getting rid of Gracia is not going to solve our problems. What we need this summer is an upheaval of the playing staff, not the coaching staff.
    domthehornet likes this.
  12. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    Don't dispute a word of that and of course my mind races quicker than my ability to type. I have already considered your every point. When is it ever going to be acceptable to criticise the Pozzos? Almost certainly never.
  13. neraksarrab

    neraksarrab Making Professor Brian Cox look thick

    just saying...!!!
  14. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    He is changing things. He is experimenting with the limited hand he has been dealt.

    This will inevitably lead to mistakes. Mad takes are good things to learn from and occasionally you hit on something good. With each game his knowledge of the league grows.

    We are virtually safe. Just accept we aren’t going to push up the league this season and will end poorly. And let him build. We did have a very toxic mix when silva was here and the body is still recovering from the poison. Give it time to heal without demanding it run a marathon and perform like a 7th placed team suddenly
  15. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Who's picking him to play then? The teaboy?
  16. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse Strangeland

    Agreed. Gracia hasn’t done anything noteworthy during his tenure. Nice man, speaks very well, but think both parties will privately be in agreement that it is best to go their separates ways in the summer.
  17. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Playing Holebas, Capoue, Mariappa and Deeney every week and throwing an ineffectual Okaka on after 60mins is not showing he is experimenting. The same tactics and defensive errors show that he isn’t learning. Me saying that he has to change some of these things is not the same as demanding we suddenly play like a 7th placed team.

    Why should we just accept that we will end poorly? Do you think the board will be happy to just accept that? We offer nothing away from home and the Home form is beginning to slip too. I would expect that one of the things that is expected of Gracia (alone with getting enough points to stay up) is that he doesn’t let this season finish in the same manner as the previous two. And he starting to fail if that is the case.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  18. TringOrn

    TringOrn First Year Pro

    Yes it's a mistake on Gracia's part picking Troy, I'm obviously not saying that Gracia is infallible. I'm saying the problems lie with recruitment and getting rid of Gracia would be a very short-sighted decision.
  19. TringOrn

    TringOrn First Year Pro

    Think that's a bit harsh. In his first home game we demolished Chelsea 4-1 with some brilliant attacking football. There are some definite causes for optimism with Gracia in my opinion. Now all we need to do is sign a whole new defence and attack, so not much to do really...
    Jimthehornet likes this.
  20. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Chelsea aside, have results been good enough for him to stay next season? We played well against Chelsea but we were 10 mins away from drawing against a team with 10 men. That result has bought him a lot of credit really.
  22. TringOrn

    TringOrn First Year Pro

    Fair point, results have been quite poor. Out of the away games that we've played, you'd only really expect to get anything out of West Ham. The last two home games have been bitterly disappointing but the most disappointing aspect of it is that our performances have merited at least 4 points and we've come away with 1.

    A lot of that is down to our terrible defence, and Gracia must take some blame for in terms of getting them organised and defending set pieces. Most of the blame however needs to be directed at the lack of recruitment. We don't mind spending £14m on Pereyra or up to £18m on Gray, but more often that not we go for the cheap option when recruiting defenders. I think it's reasonable to take the positives from recent performances and back Gracia in the transfer market, which I'm sure is what will happen.
  23. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    The concern is that the owners never really back the manager in the transfer market in a traditional sense. They back their own judgment in the market and give the manager the results of that to work with. With our setup, it’s the managers job to bind together a team with the tools he is given.

    What I think we all want, and feel is achieveable, is a return to how this season started. Can Gracia achieve that? I expect we are all split firmly down the middle on the answer to that. Personally, I don’t think he’s shown enough to show that he can, dodgy defence or not.
  24. lancyclaret

    lancyclaret Academy Graduate

    Burnley's reserve goalkeeper (Heaton) and reserve defenders (RB Phil Bardsley, CH Kevin Long and LB Charlie Taylor) have all contributed to a defence which has only conceded 28 goals in 32 games this season - and I am confident ALL four would improve Watford's defence.

    Watford have too many "fancy-dan" midfielders with no end product...we've played against Will Hughes loads of times and he has NEVER won against the Clarets.:)
    Cthulhu likes this.
  25. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I can understand why you might think that at a casual glance but actually our midfield is very strong and has been productive all season.
  26. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    I don’t he is wildly flailing ideas around by changing things maybe he is sticking to some players.

    Think we just have to be careful we don’t tar him with the same brush as previous obstinate coaches

    The same players are making the same mistakes and that won’t ch age quickly and we haven’t got many other options either.

    It isn’t acceptance more just we can see how it’s going. Staying up is far more important than pushing up the league. Sure there is more money the further up we finish but that pales into insignificance against relegation.

    I think staying up was his remit the rest a bonus. I do t think they are demanding without a preseason and with injured players that we finish high up
  27. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    No disagreement here.

    Does the style of play bother you?
  28. Hornet4ever

    Hornet4ever WFC Forums Last Man Standing Winner 2018/2019

    Should be downright thankful he's got us to safety with what he's got. All fans (from their armchairs) want better substitutions, better game management, better formations. Everything easier with the benefit of hindsight.

    Every supporter, at every club across the land says the same thing week in week out. Look at the Manchester derby yesterday, no team at any level is infallible.

    Can't see there is any evidence whatsoever to sack Gracia. Up until the Burnley comeback it was wave after wave of good attacking football, not Gracia's fault if the players miss their chances & especially Holebas who can barely put a decent corner or set piece in, out of the 100's he's taken this season.

    Makes you sick when I remember Cally in the 80's & Darren Bazely in the 90's, every cross, every corner pretty much inch perfect! They probably earned in a year what Holebas earns in a month.
    Jimthehornet and Rozerhorn like this.
  29. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss Squad Player

    A mate of mine who lives with a football agent said hs been told that Gino has been enquiring after Martinez as replacement manager, after World Cup.

    I hope this isnt true.
  30. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    I hope this isn't true either. Favours attack over defence. Which in our current predicament would be a concern.
  31. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    The Pozzo model has already shown us some of its benefits; not least, we're in the PL: There are some big, decent clubs who are not.
    Are there any downsides to the model? Well, the coach is hung out to dry - he doesn't get to sign the players (OK, maybe he has 'input'), but he has to manage them. It would seem the players have greater security of tenure than he has. I'm not sure that this is not the case at most clubs, mind you. Since he has a remit to produce results immediately, short-termism is the order of the day. To my mind a good example of the demerits of this rests with Richarlison - I may be wrong, but I think he's crying out for some quality one-on-one coaching; perhaps he should be taken out of the firing-line for a while and taught to broaden his game; he seems so talented and yet his play is limited. But is there anybody at the club with this as a part of their job?
    Also, player motivation is questionable (cue Burnley supporters looking very smug at this point): Watford is part of an organisation which employs players and then moves them around like pawns. Twenty-year-olds (and younger) get moved from from one continent to another. Players are traded or loaned at the drop of a hat. If you treat humans as a kind of commodity sooner or later they will cotton on and behave accordingly. Loyalty? To whom, or to what? Carrillo must be the supreme example of this problem: He couldn't make it more clear he's just marking time and here for the money if he had it printed on his forehead. Most young players are idealists - they are young and they love the game. But that can change...
    Pozzo's Model dictates that no single individual (at the employee level, anyway) is indispensible. If Bournemouth or Burnley lose their current managers they may well be in trouble. But there are downsides.
    Gracia has made mistakes in some of the games; but it seems to me that a lot of them show a lack of experience with the PL - probably he needs better briefing from his backroom staff. However, we need to supply him with the tools in order to do the job - that means better defenders and finishers, especially ones with genuine pace.
    Rozerhorn and KelsoOrn like this.
  32. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Attacking is a very good way of defending; but yes, we do need better defenders.
  33. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Those who are starting to get misty-eyed about QSF should take note: He has had 9 coaching jobs in 13 years - an average of about one and a half years per job. Just think back to the latter part of his season with us - dire, rigid, passionless and unimaginative football. He was bailed-out by Ighalo and Deeney in the first half of the season. I wouldn't want him back.
    3000, Derbyhorn, miked2006 and 2 others like this.
  34. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Where is he experimenting though? Seems to me like he's picking a politically acceptable 11 every week and making prebooked substitutions at allotted times.

    I accept he hasn't got the best hand to play, but he's still underplaying it (at least over the past 4 games). In the first few games I hoped we'd see some experimentation and invention. We've seen none.

    If we'd been a bit more experimental over the past four games could we have yielded less than we got? Really? It's really been just sticking a side for and hoping for the best.
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Our midfield has probably outscored your entire team this season. That's not where our problems lie. Thanks for caring though.

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