General World Cup Thread

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by Otter, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    But again, what exactly is the relevance? We didn't play Belgium in the knockout stages.

    My entire point is that A. I don't think we've truly achieved anything or have anything to be particularly oh so proud of by having simply met expectations by beating sides weaker than ourselves (that is the expectation in all of football) on route to the semi-finals and B. I'm extremely disappointed and frustrated by how appallingly we played in that semi-final once we finally met a side of some/similar quality. Any teams outside of those that we came up against and any past failings have zero relevance.

    I'm not aiming all of this entirely or directly at you, but I just find the amount of OTT positivity and "pride" about simply the fact that we made it to the semi-finals to be lacking in genuine perspective. It seems tonight's abject performance is actually almost being entirely overlooked ignored by many who are just "so proud of the lads", which I just find bizzarre.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  2. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    We lacked an experienced player to make sure we didn't drop back and let Croatia play.

    For 45 minutes they weren't a upgrade on what we had been playing but once you let them dictate the game you can see their quality.

    And we didn't hold the ball up at all well really to release some pressure.

    Its true they were probably the first side to come and attack us when they needed to.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  3. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    I'm seeing "brave", "heroes" and "proud" being bandied about like they're going out of fashion in the papers and on social media.

    Can anyone give me a genuine answer as to what exactly was so "brave" or "heroic" about England in their performance tonight? I can understand people trying to take the positives from it all, even feeling somewhat proud of the fact we made the semi-finals after such a long time, but come on...
     
  4. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well its either like that or comments such as overpaid, underperforming prima donnas etc had we lost as you suggest to a team we would expect to beat from the media.

    No middle ground at all!

    Often depends on if they like the players and how much PR they do...

    Even Southgate has said we can improve a lot more.
     
  5. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    I just find the way tonights defeat is being treated by the media and a large section of fans to be absolutely baffling. I don't think anyone could hand on heart say that it wasn't a very poor showing, we weren't unlucky or robbed, we were just bad, yet that is seemingly being brushed under the carpet for reasons unknown, and they're being branded as brave and heroic? For what? It's just bizarre.

    Like you say, no middle ground. I don't expect nor want to see the media etc. tearing into them, but lauding them as heroic and brave after that performance and the opportunity missed because of it is flat out weird.
     
  6. It's called getting behind your team. Less entitled fans do that when they feel a reasonable amount of effort has been put in.

    Can be more effective than kunting off everyone that betrays you by not living up to your expectations.

    It's worth trying some time. On occasions it can produce quite a positive outcome.
     
    Cthulhu likes this.
  7. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Have very clearly explained the reasoning behind why I feel the way I do. I'm not going to happy clap along just to conform to the masses. Labelling them as heroic and brave after tonights performance is beyond "getting behind your team", it's embarrassing.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Oh yes, true!
     
  9. Fitz

    Fitz Squad Player

    I just came to give an elegy to this entertaining team. I was pleasantly surprised by this England. As a more or less neutral, I enjoyed every England game this tournament, and appreciated what they did as a team.

    No, they aren’t as lauded as previous England “generations”, and bluntly put, not as talented as many of the rest of the teams in the quarterfinals. But they had a fighting spirit and commitment to each other as a team that those previous England squads and many of the quarterfinalists lacked. They cared, about winning, about each other, and about England, and it showed.

    Thanks England!
     
    KelsoOrn and HappyHornet24 like this.
  10. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    Bang on, he has had a poor tournament yet will end up as Golden Boot.
     
  11. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Women's World Hockey Cup.
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  12. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Well, with England, one positive outcome ever.
     
  13. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Getting to the SF was great, but if you'd been shown the matches we would face 3 weeks ago you'd have expected us to get to the SF and have a decent shot of getting to the final.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Yes and the next WC which the uninformed UK General public will expect us to win if we are to "show progress".
     
  15. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Both of those tournaments are already won because Germany didn't win the World Cup in 2010 but did in 2014.
     
  16. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Yes. In the bag, ours to lose. Over to you Gareth for the formalities.
     
  17. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Need a hug m8?
     
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Suriname?
     
  19. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Man dressed as a woman, fart gags and pantomime quality staging. Not really classic drama
     
  20. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    The good things to come out of the world cup are;

    Southgate understood the need to keep the players relaxed, happy and motivated.
    He understood the need to keep the media onside and did this excellently with the media days and his general attitude and humour.
    We dealt with the lesser teams we played efficiently and took advantage of the comparatively easy route to the SF, though should have played better in the SF.
    No fan trouble.
    Young team so should improve.
     
  21. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    And who's just popped up on R4 to share with us his knowledgable and weell-thought-out* "opinions" on the team: why it's 'Arry Rednapp (spouting bollox).

    *Other descriptions are available.
     
  22. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    The point is not that we played average or poor teams, the fact is that we beat them.

    That may be meat and drink on paper but it is rarely so in tournament football.

    England have gone out to crap sides before. Other big teams this world cup failed to progress due to failure to overcome mediocre teams.

    We played to our capacity which for England, is a rare occurance
     
  23. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    Nothing you've written on this forum suggests you would ever write that after a defeat. "Glass half empty" doesn't even begin to describe the way you consistently view the Watford team and how they fare; and so it is with your summation of the England performance in this World Cup. It's your prerogative to take this attitude but you might as well embrace it and not pretend you would ever be any different.

    Disappointing that we came so tantalisingly close but we were naive yesterday and ultimately lost to the better side. I don't really see the point in bitching about what teams we did or didn't have to beat to get there - the fact is, no-one expected this side to get as far as the semi finals. We had a longer, more enjoyable ride than we expected thanks to a team which seemed to give its all and work as a unit; and led by a manager who the players wanted to do their best for and who has carried himself with decency and good grace throughout. I for one think those are all reasons to be cheerful now that the dust has settled.
    Plus, my own personal silver lining is that Mr HH put a bet on Croatia to win the World Cup before the tournament started. (although I think France will win)
     
    Optimistichornet likes this.
  24. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    I think the euphoria has come about due to the fact it's done something almost impossible and united the nation, it gave us a brief glimmer of hope in all the political turmoil that is going on.
     
  25. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    You're spot on to call out the 'heroes' nonsense being banded about by the tabloids, but I think your view of England's performance at the tournament and on the night is too negative.

    Tagging opposition teams as weaker, as if that makes a win against them a minimum expectation, is a false economy in tournament football. It works with the Panamas or Saudis but that's about it. Of course there are some teams who will never win it, but they're not cannon fodder either. Often their pride at representing their country and the occasion of playing England (who are still seen a major scalp) sees them up their game and close the gap on the day. We see it enough in club football to know it happens. Even then, the one truly weak team we played we demolished rather doing our normal asthmatic limp to a 1-0 win. That showed a clear change in attitude and professionalism that I've not seen from an England team in my time.

    You also have to take into account this England team was basically made up ad hoc, in the sense a fair few of the players only reached the team in the second year of qualifying and the formation was only really settled pre-tournament. Some teams spend the whole 4 year cycle between World Cups preparing for it. Same core players, same formation, same coach. We can't tick any of those boxes. Plus our squad had a comparatively very low number of caps and the downside of picking the best players for the job, rather than 11 who play for the best clubs, is the fact most have won fook all in club football either. Those big game experiences that help them learn how to manage difficult moments really aren't there. I think most can see this wasn't a great England squad either. There was no real help on the bench.

    Then you look at international tournament football. It's a strange thing and certainly isn't as simple as 'Team X is stronger on paper than Team Y so Team X should win'. Everyone only a few days to recover between games and prepare for the next, has to deal with the pressure from back home, the media appearances and unfamiliar surroundings of a hotel abroad for weeks on end. Plus you can probably lump in different refereeing styles game to game, opposition tactics and gamesmanship etc which don't translate to the English/European culture our players are used to and for me it's easy to see why it's an achievement to make the last 4.

    Of course there's stuff to learn and probably some regrets. But for me this was clearly a positive tournament and the players should be proud of their efforts.

    I also don't think last night was abject or appalling but will leave that for now.
     
  26. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    The England Semi final heroes of 2018 do not match up to the Watford semi final heroes of 2016 imo.

    Still bugs me that Jurado didn't get a knighthood.
     
  27. I understand how you feel. I'm just trying to describe to you how some fans get behind their team.
     
  28. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Very fair summary. I would just like to add that this was the first tournament in a long while (this century?) that I've seen an England team play like "a team" - unfortunately that stopped about an hour into last night's game. Southgate's "safe" for the 2020 Euro's and with the U18 talent "bubbling up" and reported soundbites about what he wants to do with the St George's Park set-up I hope that the FA give him carte-blanche to do it.
     
  29. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Allusion to Tour de France?

    That would work for an Anglophile Frenchman.
     
  30. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    The relevance of the Belgium analogy is that you contested my suggestion that this England team was one of relatively limited ability, to which my response was to compare them to the other losing semi-finalists. To my mind, that is a far better way of measuring their capabilities in an international tournament than saying that (say) Stones is a PL winner as you did in #1678.

    I agree about the media overkill, but, sadly, ‘twas ever thus. And, as someone pointed out above, we haven’t had that much to be positive about in recent times.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  31. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Or Jamie’s Dad, as he’s now known.
     
  32. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Very disappointing. I am on my way to my nearest travel agents to rip up their 'Come to Croatia' brochures
     
    Bwood_Horn and wfcmoog like this.
  33. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Spot on. Let the pickers pick at it and moaners say told you so. The reality is England found a connection with the fans again which is important in this time of crisis. For now it'll be Italy, Germany and Holland remodelling their teams on us which is a huge positive.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  34. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    They tried. They came up short. Nothing to beat them up about unlike 2 years ago.
    Why all the negativity? First time in decades we played as a team and competed with a young team expected to do nothing.
     
  35. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    The most encouraging thing is that at no point were all 11 playing their best. In fact maybe only 6-7 tops.

    Tripper, Pickford and Maguire have done exceptionally well considering they didn't even feature in qualifying.

    Next time we'll have Hughes, Chalobah, Sessegnon, Maddison, Sancho, Lookman and hopefully Ben Wilmot!

    Still gutting though. There's pride, but the overwhelming feeling is emptiness today.
     

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