Flores F off now!!

I read it as "We can only rectify the problem in the summer whether we stay up or go down because we got complacent and took the PL for granted, saw Brighton at home first match and went to the pub instead of preparing for it"

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he went but who to go for? Surely dome experience will be required

 

Even if you hate Flores and want him to go now, bide your time till the transfer window opens, any new manager would need to strengthen that defence, until then we need to pick up a few decent results just to stay in touch. There will be teams that nosedive after Xmas - maybe Newcastle, Brighton. Even the impressive Sheff Utd will find the second set of games tougher when teams work them out.

It's common sense to stick with a new manager with such a fixture build up with midweek games to come. A new manager would take a few weeks to asses the squad if we go down the usual route of a chap we know little about who in turn knows little about us. Perhaps a new manager with a few new players would be a better option on January, it's not too late.

We weren't shocking against Burnley and edged it until the inevitable aerial problems began, you could almost feel a goal would come from a cross especially with our only decent guy in the air off injured

A win against Saints would be 6 points from 3 games, a good return. A loss and the return is not good, them's the fine lines and that's where the fans support comes in

 

Personally, I think this is the only thing that's keeping him in his job. I don't think Gino can find a viable replacement.

It's unlikely he'll be sacked this week, but a defeat on Saturday will have to mean it's the end for him.....surely?

It's not a good reason to keep a coach just because there is no one else they fancy available, but sacking the coach without a replacement in place would be highly irresponsible and would not be something I think the owner would do. It's not as if the players are in revolt and all want him out. As far as I can see, there isn't a toxic atmosphere but of course everyone is very down and lacking in confidence.

Through media reports, there are claims that Watford don't want to go for a 'firefighter' type coach, but this is exactly what they need right now. When have Watford ever seen a coach as someone who they'd stick with through thick and thin? It just doesn't happen. A bad run of results always means the sack, so I'm a little unsure why they would not consider someone who has a track record of turning things around. Watford do not do long-term coaching appointments, so a quick-fixer type shouldn't really phase them. The hierarchy cannot pretend anymore that they have it all under control. They don't, they've screwed up big time this season and it will take extreme measures to avoid the inevitable relegation. Something has to be done about it, and time is fast running out. Doing nothing isn't an option that will bring success....IMO.

 

The only firefighter coaches are British - Pulis and Allardyce immediately spring to mind and I can't think of any foreign manager that would fit that criteria in the Prem

Perhaps the Pozzos would only consider this option with ten games to go if we need a real fire put out

It's quite feasable that we could have four managers this term - If Flores goes and the new guy does worse

 

It does seem strange not to want a firefighting coach doesn't it, based on the longevity of our managers.

 

It's not just about the return though, is it, particularly when that return would only possibly be earned from the two other worst teams in the league.

Arguably even more important is what is displayed on the pitch, and what we can take from all the performances under him to date, and in that regard it's very clear that he hasn't done what he was brought here to do and that there isn't much reason to expect us to suddenly burst into life.

Even our one victory this season was achieved without playing particularly well at all. It was a classic case of being blinded to reason by three points. If we lose to Southampton, we could directly say that, having ignored the signs and pattern formed, those three points cost us more than they were worth by allowing Quique to trudge on deeper and deeper into the mire.

 

True but were Burnley better than us in all departments or was the loss down to our ability to defend crosses? If it's that latter the Flores can't make Cathcart, Mapps Massina et al suddenly good in the air. I get what your saying but I think the problems lie much deeper than the manager

 

I agree with you that the problems lie deeper than the manager, but the loss was not purely down to an inability to defend crosses. It was also about an inability to stop them coming in, but far more than that it was about the way we utterly collapsed having conceded a single goal to a team known for the opposite of scoring a lot of goals. Yet, instead of coming back and responding positively with plenty of the game to go, we end up thrashed to nil by the biggest bunch of cloggers the Prem has seen since the 90s. It's a mentality thing and a tactics thing, and as Reids has already pointed out here, those tactics (or the complete and utter lack of them when it came to the dead ball situations they scored from) are squarely at the feet of Quique and the coaching staff.

More than that, a manager's worth is as much about being the right manager at the right time. In our current situation, what we need as much as anything is a manager who gets the inferior players playing as a unit and infuses the collective with a positive spirit that elevates them from their individual limitations and overcomes the circumstances. Instead, all our players are playing like ****, and many are actually playing well below the level we have seen them at in the past. Whether Quique as a manager has some worth at all is one debate, but it's pretty much a fact at this point that he does not have any worth to us in the predicament we currently find ourselves in.

Even the idea of him being a specialist in defence (however he achieved that) has been eviscerated. We are hamstrung by his approach and personal limitations.

 

Could do a job....

 

I agree with most of this, thinking back to his first year Flores was good at keeping clean sheets but I couldn't remember us coming back from a goal down all that often.

On the flipside we were unlucky at Spurs, missed 3 gilt edged chances against Sheff Utd and should have beaten Arsenal when he did get a turnaround

Fine lines

 

Please no!!!!!! Hughes! Pardew! AAARRRRRRRGGGGH

 

Daily Mail at 00:33
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7725327/Watford-fear-bring-manager-Christmas.html

Daily Mail at 11:14
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...on-sacking-manager-Quique-Sanchez-Flores.html

 

You've reminded me, that was a chief meme about us in the second half of that season; that if we conceded a goal, the match was over. We rarely needed to be thrashed, they just needed to get their noses ahead once.

We were unlucky at Spurs, but everyone is unlucky at times. Almost everyone has been unlucky times this season. We are far from the only obvious/high profile VAR mistake, there have been plenty, affecting teams across the board in our league. We can't focus on that too much, we need to focus on the fact that all the rest of the time when we're not being unlucky, we're being utterly ****. Part of being a decent team is A) making a modicum of your own luck and B) playing well enough to compensate for those moments of poor fortune the rest of the time. It's a lot harder to throw light on those moments of bad luck when all the other moments are so clearly the actual problem.

In terms of the Arsenal game, that second half was a rare treat, but even then, we were (at least in part) allowed back into that game, having player a fairly dire first half, by the inexplicable substitutions Emery made to surrender control of the middle of the park. We had a lot of shots, but unless I'm missing something the only reason we 'should have won' is because Doucoure had a gilt-edged chance that he hit straight at the keeper. So we didn't really deserve anymore than we got, and that turned out to be rather indicative of our season to follow. It was also literally Quique's first game, so crediting him with it when he was basically still using Javi's system and the players had barely been influenced by him is maybe a bit generous.

We can only consider fine lines for so long, and when we are coming down on the wrong side of them every single time, those lines stop being quite so fine.

 

I'm not sure performance matters that much at the moment as it doesn't guarantee points. We played pretty well for 45 mins Saturday and lost 3-0. Give me a rubbish performance and a 1-0 win any day of the week in our current situation. Performance can come later if we can start picking up some wins

 

They're both just reporting the reporting of another paper aren't they; no privileged information or even judgement of their own involved in either.

 

You're not necessarily wrong, but we're not putting in any performances worthy of even getting that 1-0 win, that's surely the problem. Yes, we played pretty well for 45 minutes. But that's not a performance; that's a half. Our performance on Saturday was 'utterly falling apart and getting thrashed by a very average team who spent most of the match playing pretty poorly by their own standards'. It really shouldn't be forgotten how averagely Burnley played for the majority of that match; it was something the commentators were openly mentioning during the game.

I'm not asking for a 'performance' in the sense of sparkling, dazzling samba football to gloriously put an opponent to the sword. When I say performance, I'm talking about a game being managed effectively for its full length to the point that we win, which is after all one of the key aspects of a Head Coach's job.

 

It's a fair point, I just think winning a game, no matter how it is achieved, is all I want right now. I'm going to the game Saturday and much as I want to be entertained, I would bite your arm off for a scrappy 1-0 win

 

Just saw Paul Jewell and Ian Holloway at Watford Junction. In their interview suits.

 

#dreamteam

 

I fully understand that and as a pure football fan, would like to see the same thing, but I can't escape the fact that that would very likely be the worst possible outcome for us! That being said, we need those points more than almost anything; he should be going whatever the result, rather than us essentially holding ourselves hostage in this way.

 

It's a bit tenous to suggest any good performance is down to the previous manager departed especially as the first half was poor, did Javi come in at half time for a team talk lol

I also forgot to praise Flores for keeping us up that season with ease.

It's a bitter irony that the bulk of our current defensive line were not first choice back then, I love Mapps and Catchcart for their service but they wouldn't get into any other prem side and as you say stopping crosses is an issue too, Jaanmat and Holebas probably wouldn't make any other prem team on those qualities either.

Not sure if another manager would get a tune out of these players at the back

 

Burnley bullied us at every set play they had. Our set plays were laughable. Deulofeu took a corner and couldn't beat the first man, so Holebas ensured he took the next one and put it straight out for a goal kick.

Regardless of the head coach, our squad is simply not good enough and lacks heart.

 

No, by essentially the same logic as you, I'm not crediting Javi with the whole performance, just saying that it's a bit much to totally credit Quique with it. Particularly when it's totally out of step with every other performance since, over which he has had increasingly total influence. It was a collision of factors and a melding of styles, coupled with a desire from the players to show what they could do in the very first game under a new manager.

 

Yes my point though was about the fine lines and I know every team has them but IF and yes it's a huge if Doucs had scored, VAR hadn't played games at Spurs and one of those chances had gone in V a very good Sheff Utd outfit we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Bottom line is the team needs strengthening at the back, because of this there's no point in changing mananger until the transfer window. If we can keep it tight we will turn these fine line draws and losses into wins, it's ok to play ugly,

 

I’m going to keep on saying it: the team needs strengthening at the front.

 

Midfield is good though, if we recall our loanees we could go for 0-10-0 formation, confuse them with three wingers either side- Sorted

 

But we can't keep it tight. We've displayed that many times. We can't just keep doing what amounts to hoping that something will miraculously change, and surrendering a full half a season in doing so.

Bringing in a manager who is capable is the only chance we have of those lines being crossed and turning losses into wins, especially given the opponents we face over the rest of this calendar year.

We also can't score goals, because Quique has no attacking plan whatsoever and our players aren't good enough to consistently conjure something out of absolutely nothing, so it's quite difficult to win games. You honestly have to question what Quique is doing on the training ground week to week, because we don't look particularly prepared for anything when we take the field on a Saturday afternoon.

 

Burnley knew that Foster struggles when the ball is put under the bar from set pieces - he flaps at it. They knew it and exploited it. Can QSF make Foster better at that? No, not at this stage in his career. But what he can do is drop him.

That’s an example that can be used in a number of areas on the pitch. Absolving QSF for players shortcomings only works so far, as he others he can call upon.

As for others comments - each to their own. But I think it’s telling if we keep QSF for the Saints game purely because we can’t find a suitable replacement. Our attitude towards coaches is catching up with us I suspect. But keeping him in the post on that proviso is dangerous - he’s either the man for us or he isn’t. If not, sack him and let Mullins loose on the First Team until you get someone in.

I really really fear for us if we give QSF Decembers fixtures.

 

It’s a win win situation.

If we survive we make a comeback of epic proportions and have some thrilling games along the way.

If we get relegated Flores gets sacked never to darken our door again.

It’s a good time to be a Watford fan.

 

I suspect we won’t have to wait until we are relegated until the 2nd of those scenarios happens

 

I equally fear a new manager having them too,

Is it naive for some on here to suggest Flores doesn't know what he's doing? I think so given his experience and knowledge of the club/team. Is it naive to think someone will come in and do better? Or just optimism, there's a chance but at what percentage right now and who?, given that we are Watford and cant cherry pick.

 

To be fair Flores has shored things up a lot, there were clean sheets, if Deeney comes back firing him and GD would be a potent threat up top too, something the manager is yet to harness. I think we're all being a bit impatient, of course the counter is we are sleepwalking to relegation but this scenario could repeat itself in two months time with A.N New manager

 

No way.
None of the above. Their time is up .
We need a fresh approach, a total review of what is going on at the club. This is to include the past 3/4 years, not just JG lack of pre season preparation.
We all know that most of the current squad are simply not good enough for the Premier league.
We have hit the iceberg, water is rushing in and l can see AD, RP, GD running for the lifeboat as we are sinking.
Oddly, the Titanic was built in Southampton. Saturday may see them on the docks waving us goodbye.

 

Y'think so ???
Controversial.