Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by hornmeister, Nov 14, 2010.
Floating about on Twitter:
Hilarious that Vettel and Ferrari are trying to blame Verstappen for the crash today. Vettel went way over to the left to try and squeeze him out and Verstappen had absolutely nowhere to go.
Vetted should get punished as it was far more dangerous than other minor infringements we see other drivers punished for.
It was definitely Vettel's fault. He won't be punished though as the race marshals have deemed it to be a racing incident.
What a surprise, if that had been Hamilton he would have got a 5 place grid penalty at the very least for the next race
Vettel is on I think 9 penalty points on his racing licence. any more would have meant a ban?
If Bernie had still been in charge Vettel would have been summoned after this the last episode, and he would have received some firm advice. These new chaps, I'm not so sure about.
Throughout his career Vetel has shown stupid moments of brain fade - the crashes with Webber, rammimg Lewis for example- he seems to work himself into a state, mist descends, brain switches off, and then he goes and does something stupid.
It's why for me he will never be a great.
Lewis has been in the best form of his career imo since Silverstone and is in a whole different class. Unquestionably one of the top 5 greatest drivers of all time alongside Fangio, Clark, Schumacher and Senna.
Whilst I agree Vettel should be penalised (mainly because he still hasn't learned to control his aggression after Baku), to say that's a reason for you not to ever possibly see him as a great but then list Hamilton, Schumacher and Senna as greats is a bit contradictory.
Hamilton has had plenty of 'brain fade' moments (he drove into the back of somebody in the pits, for example), although he seems to have grown out of it. Schumacher was notorious for taking no prisoners, and Senna intentionally crashed into Prost in revenge for the title decider fiasco at Suzuka, as well as losing concentration at Monaco when miles in the lead and crashing out.
I see a difference between a rookie making a stupid error and a highly experienced driver repeatedly making stupid errors, the latter a flaw
I also see a difference between Senna deliberately causing a crash because of a specific set of circumstances which had been building for 2 seasons, and Vettel having a mad moment where the pressure sends his brain into stupid mode
Vettel has repeatedly shown he is incapable of handling pressure situations, that's why he will never be a great
Hamilton has missed out on two world titles, through yes a few mistakes, but also through a greater share of car reliability than others. However the way, as a pure out and out racer, that he has negotiated rules which put him at a huge disadvantage, such as limiting tire changes, restricting fuel, punishing the driver for engine changes etc. is amazing.
If he had suffered the same number of mechanical issues as his counterparts, then he'd be likely to win his 6th F1 title this year. That's Schumacher territory, who suffered far fewer rule changes to limit his superiority.
On raw out and out speed, Hamilton is one of the best of all time. Despite his number of titles, Vettel has a lot to do to get close to him as one of the best ever.
I think the difference in maturity really showed this year, as Hamilton moved over to let rookie-Merc driver Bottas through, despite Lewis having the faster car. It was a mature decision that I think will pay dividends later in the season, as a happy Bottas fights to help Lewis win the title.
Could you imagine Vettel doing that? Not in a million years.
To be one of the greats you do need to have a certain arrogance and tread on people every now and again.
Schumacher did it to hill to win the championship.Senna did it to Prost. They were calculated actions which benefited them. Vettel seems to do it when he's got the arse. something I wouldn't expect of a driver with his experience.
The true greats dominate when they've not got the best car or massively out perform their team mate under fair circumstances. Vettel isn't there yet in my opinion.
Of the years I've been watching F1 in my opinion
Senna Prost Mansell Schumacher and Hamilton are the best I've seen.
Alonso comes close, but lacks the will to try if not given the best equipment.
Button comes close, he's able to wring every ounce of performance out of a car and is a master technician in not breaking them.
Berger could have got there bust suffered from having to compete with Prost Senna and Mansell during a golden era of F1.
Of the current corp of up and comers I think Vestappen and Ocon are ones to watch. Botas is currently playing a good no.2 even if that's not official I;d say he needs to move on in a year's time if he wants to fulfil his potential, this is assuming Hamilton doesn't jump to Ferrari or quit altogether.
Heres an interesting one, the top gear test track, about the only time you can get a fair comparison:
1 Daniel Ricciardo 1:42.2 22 3 Placed three identical lap times
2 Lewis Hamilton 1:42.9 19 4 Second attempt
3 Mark Webber 1:43.1 20 6 Second attempt
4 Sebastian Vettel 1:44.0 17 3
5 Rubens Barrichello 1:44.3 15 3
6 Ben Collins 1:44.4 8 2 The Stig II (removed from the board during interview with Vettel)
7 Nigel Mansell 1:44.6 7 5
8 Lewis Hamilton 1:44.7 10 8 Wet & oily
9 Jenson Button 1:44.7 8 8 Hot
10 Jenson Button 1:44.9 14 5 Second attempt. Wet
11 Perry McCarthy 1:46.0 N/A N/A The Stig I (removed from the board)
12 Kimi Räikk*nen 1:46.1 18 7 Very wet
13 Damon Hill 1:46.3 6 5
14 Mark Webber 1:47.1 6 10 Extremely wet
Not sure I'd class Button in the same league as them. He was a great at nursing a car and especially his tires, but never had the raw pace of his counterparts and too often lost out to his teammate throughout the season.
Alonso is often unfairly labelled as the most talented driver in F1, and even though he is very good at many of the skills required in F1, he is not the best at any of them (except maybe race starts). For me, Hamilton is the more talented.
Hamilton being fastest in both the dry and the wet speaks volumes, as does Hamilton's wet time being only .7 off Vettel's dry time.
Vettel does have great raw pace too when he shows up, but Hamilton is far more consistent and absolutely class in the rain, where engine speeds matter less than pure driver talent.
Famous quote from Paddy Lowe “Lewis is an extraordinary driver,” he says. “The first time we ran him at McLaren [as a rookie late in 2006], I recall the guys looking at the steering trace at the Silverstone test. The oversteer corrections in all the braking zones and corner entries were massive. We were waiting for his feedback and he didn’t mention that. We asked ‘How’s the car on entry?’ and he said, ‘Fine’. His natural car control was extraordinary. Most drivers would have been quite unhappy with such instability.”
I think as far as raw natural talent goes I think Hamilton , Senna are the best.
Prost was technically superb and runs them a close 3rd.
Schumacher was tirelessly determined and focussed but I'm not sure that it was a natural talent.
Maybe Mansell would be up there but he was a bit bull in a china shop and didn't have sympathy with the car, something suprising given his mechnaical background.
Of note this thread reminded me of the british GP 1991 Taxi for senna incident. Just purchased this:
Pretty much title number 4 for Hamilton.
59 points ahead with 100 to go and I don't think he will have a Vettel/Ferrari type melt down.
I imagine Merc will be happy to move on from the W08, it's a temperamental race car
The Ferrari looks the better all round car over the season
This title will come down to a combination of luck and his one lap qualy speed
What idiot thought the boxing style walk out was a good idea?
Not sure the drivers such as Alonso liked it either! At least they have tried something different but hopefully never again!
Comfortable enough for Lewis after a early battle with Vettel.
Going to win the title next week ion Mexico.
Verstapphen again creating most of the exciting racing coming from the back to nick 3rd on the line.
There has been a right fall out, as Verstappen was penalised back to 4th after driving too wide in overtaking for 3rd place.
A real shame, as he provided most of the excitement.
From what I heard it was dull as ditchwater to watch. How are F1 going to stop the borefest?
They definitely need to stop this grid place penalty madness, if they want a genuine contest at the front of the grid.
I don't think they have any pressing need or reason to.
So long as the money rolls in they probably don't care...
My Intial reaction was wtf, but I actually quite liked it. Dump the interviews and have the introductions slightly less American and its a good thing.
One of the better GPs imho. Some good overtaking.
Agreed. The penalty situation is bonkers.
Here's a thought. Have the penalties apply to constructors points only. The punter is only interested in the drivers championship (and it;s not their fault if the gearboxes are made of chocolate) and the manufacturers get hurt in the pocket if they are unreliable or over spend by getting hit in the prize money. That way more reliable, frugal teams, get more cash.
Opps - might be all over already!
Hamilton and Vettel having a first lap clash and both at the back of the race now.
Well this is more exciting. Put the leaders at the back of the pack and you get an interesting race. Who'd have thought?
Doesn't that happen in touring cars, or they get ballast added to the next race if they win. Would make much more interesting viewing.
Hamilton probably won't be happy with how the title was won - just seems to be a perfectionist.
Oh I don't know, he seemed perfectly happy with the farcical way he wona few years back overlapping a car on the final corner of the final race (that coincidentally also had a mercedes engine) to finish in 5th or something.
I'm sure the little lovely will be ok with it.
Can't get used to these halo things and I'm sure they obstruct vision more than assist with collision protection.
Sticking a moulded plastic thong over the drivers heads I suppose makes sense, considering half of them are knobs
This is the headline on the BBC after the Australian GP.
Sebastian Vettel won a dramatic Australian Grand Prix after leapfrogging Lewis Hamilton during a safety car period
And they wonder why people aren't watching it anymore.
Has this insufferably tedious “sport” started again then?