Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Aug 6, 2018.
Yep. Top 4 form since we beat them. Heavy investment in the summer and they'll be a force.
I imagine this will come across the wrong way, but I assure you I mean zero disrespect by it...
Surely Everton *should* be finishing above Watford? By virtue of the amount of money there is between the respective budgets of the two sides. What I mean by that is that Everton finishing a place or two above Watford shouldn't necessarily be any reflection of the job that either Silva or Gracia has done. Silva has done ok, lots of positives but some areas of concern too. Gracia appears (from the outside looking in) to have done a cracking job. And let's not overlook the fact that he's given you the first realistic sniff of silverware that you've had in 35 years.
Yes we've finished above you. Do I take any sort of smug pleasure in it? Nope - for a number of reasons, but above all because I don't think we have anything to be particularly smug about.
The overall point is that we smarmily spent the season pointing and laughing at Everton for being below us only to find ourselves below.
And no, 7th place was there. In our own hands. Thrown away by poor management. This season will go down as a bang average one.
It won't be *that* heavy. Still loads of players who are borderline impossible to sell because of their daft wages. The list would shock you.
Incomings will be partially dependent on who we can get rid of, but I'd expect half a dozen or so signings. Maybe two or three of them might be "big" signings by our standard, but nothing like the sort of stuff we've been doing for the last few years.
If you win the cup (and I appreciate you are big underdogs), I doubt the term 'bang average' will ever be uttered in association with this season at any point in the future
We won't. No Watford fan remembers anything other about the 83-84 season other than the cup run and defeat.
It'll be the same about this season.
Unfortunately then there was none of this "...7th place might mean European football..." stuff. It's a shame that getting to final means nothing.
I remember following Watford in Europe.
I don't think it was a coincidence that Everton's form picked up after we settled our differences over Silva. I think it was playing on his mind, a real distraction.
No surprise to see snakey bellyaching over Everton's transfer window.
SILVA DISAPPOINTED WITH DEFENCE
Marco Silva has been pretty candid in his Everton pre-match press conference this morning ahead of tomorrow's game with Crystal Palace, after the missed out on signing a new centre-back in the transfer window.
The Toffees lost Kurt Zouma, who went back to parent club Chelsea, and did approach Manchester United yesterday to negotiate a deal for Marcos Rojo, but couldn't agree a fee for the Argentine.
Silva said: "I will be honest, it's not the best scenario for me as a coach. We have had our targets since the first day, not just one, not just two, more than that, but for many reasons we didn't get them. It is what it is, that's football, it's not the best scenario to start with three central defenders.
"When it happens, it's a good opportunity - we never had any doubt about Yerry Mina when he was fit last season, he was a really important player for us. He's adapted more now, he's in better shape having pre-season with us. But if you'd ask me if I would like to have more competition at centre-back, that is true."
Yep. We had a really good window with one glaring omission. Got players on board in every position we were looking for, but the failure to replace Zouma is the first blot on Marcel Brands' copybook since he arrived. Leaves us quite short in that area for a few months at least.
Silva getting his excuses in early
Spoken to a couple of Gooner friends, they're delighted to have got so much for Iwobi - makes the spend for Pepe only £35m.
£28m rising to £35m with add ons. I'm alright with that
In all honesty we are going to have to cut him some slack. We have two senior centre backs at the club. Any injuries leave us in a precarious position. If we do have any injuries, Silva will be afforded a bit of leeway as he can rightly feel a bit let down by this rather glaring mistake from Brands.
Bolasie mk II.
Everton: "How much for Iwobi?"
Arsenal: "£40 million. Lol, only joki--"
*Marcel Brands makes it rain*
See, it worked.
Oh dear what a pity never mind, the excuses are coming out already, just in case it all goes wrong, then he will claim it will not be his fault
But that should have been the priority then, rather than chase after marquee signings. A CB was our top priority, we got that out of the way weeks and weeks ago
Our CB almost was our marquee signing.
I don't disagree. It's a huge mistake.
Well, it won't be, will it?
Nah, he's one of the most creative players on the league if you look at the stats. He just has a tendency to be a bit frustrating with his finishing. Bolasie, on the other hand, there was never any logical explanation for.
I mean, you do tend to throw money around like you're a big club, which I would say acts as some form of explanation...
The window we signed Bolasie was the beginning of that two year period where we peed money up the wall because we could, rather than having any semblance of a coherent plan. These days there's at least a logic you can follow.
Mina is a bit of a sick note as well. Everton are very fragile at the back.
I don’t care what Silva says, Iwobi was a desperate signing. Arsenal couldn’t wait to get rid of him. He can try and fluff it up all he likes saying that Iwobi was a main target, yeah after Zaha and Welbeck.
Kean is a very good signing, if he has one good season though he will be off to a much bigger club. Everton will double their money on him which is good for them. Can’t believe Juventus let him go fo so cheap.
Really is going to be a interesting season. Multiple clubs capable of breaking into the top 6 and fighting for 7th. Think it will all come down to injuries.
Zaha, Malcom, Neres and Pepe were all on the list ahead of Iwobi. For various reasons they weren't obtainable. Saying he was one of our "main" targets is a bit disingenuous to say the least, still I'm pleased we had alternatives lined up.
Kean - he had a year left at Juve, hence why they were backed into a corner and we've built a good relationship with Raiola these days (you'd hope so, given he is also Marcel Brands' agent). Juve wanted a buyback clause, which we were able to refuse. Kean wouldn't sign a new deal and Raiola convinced him he'd be best served coming here to develop. It's fine, if he has a good couple of years I would imagine he'll have his sights set on a big European super club - no issues there, we have the same scenario with Richarlison. Not dissimilar to the way Watford operate, just as things stand we are arguably the next step up the ladder for a player who plays for someone like Watford and then there's a further step up the ladder from someone like us. It's where we are, you have to accept it, but as long as you buy and sell sensibly it's a perfectly decent model.
Injuries is a very fair point though - an injury to one of our centre backs (and Mina spent more time injured last season than he did fit) and we are in big trouble. Holgate has never convinced and we have a young lad called Lewis Gibson who is incredibly promising but also, by Silva's own admission, not ready for this level. We do have depth and quality cover in every other position though. Just have to cross our fingers and hope we get lucky and manage to make it through to January in that key centre back area.
I'd be delighted with the window we had if it wasn't for that nagging worry about centre back. Chelsea and Man Utd look vulnerable and it's really only that defensive concern which stops me from being confident about challenging them.
Is it possible for both Everton and Palace to lose tomorrow?
Arguably you are a step down
I'd be interested to hear this argument
Reasons why players (like Doucoure) might choose Watford over Everton:
1. Everton have been a chaotic mess for years and it's still going on. £35M for Iwobi? Aaaahhhhhaaaahhhhaaahh.
2. Everton fans are f***tards who demand top 6 and throw their rattles at the players who they perceive as failures when (quite obviously to the rest of us) it doesn't happen.
3. Watford were closer to achieving silverware and or a Europa spot than Everton over the last 12 months.
4. Watford has a better squad.
5. Watford has a better coach.
6. Watford has a better owner.
7. Off the pitch a player understands the Pozzo model, they know no effort or expense will be spared developing them and when the time comes they will be helped to move on to a genuine top 6 team with the clubs full blessing.
8. Players know Watford fundamentally understands football is an infinite game and follows a strategy of long term stability and continuous improvement instead of short termism trying to buy success.
9. Liverpool is quite nice city these days but it's not as big an attraction to a footballer than living near London.
10. Watford is a better place to develop players and can offer young up and coming stars football at Udinese or other networked clubs around Europe.
11. Did I mention Everton fans are f***tards?
Reasons why a player might go to Everton.
Wow, you actually went to the trouble of doing it
Although it's more than a little bit flawed by changing the premise of the argument from "Arguably you are a step down" to "Reasons why players (like Doucoure) might choose Watford over Everton"
However, I'll respond to all of your points since you took the time and it would be rude to ignore it given all the time you've spent on it.
1. Everton haven't been a chaotic mess for the last 12 months. £28m for Iwobi (and I'm still more than happy with that) - let's not forget that you're literally now paying wages to Danny Welbeck.
2. Subjective this one. I could counter it by suggesting that if I were a neutral with slightly less Watford bias than I have, the last 18 months might suggest Watford fans have a startling inferiority complex about Everton
3. Were they? Everton finished one place and 3 points outside the Europa league spots. Watford lost the cup final by an all-time record margin (I would guess this wasn't a huge selling point for the club as the game is watched all around the world).
4. If that were the case, Watford should have finished above Everton last season, or perhaps the season before that (or maybe more than once in their entire history)
5. See point number 4
6. I'll give you this one to a degree. They may have less resources than the Everton owner, but they are far more versed in the football world and knew their model from day one, whereas it has taken us some time to get there
7. Have you moved a single player on to a top 6 club since you got back to the Premier League? Maybe you have, I can't think of one. Eveton have a history of doing this. Barkley being the most recent, Lukaku before that, John Stones before that. Richarlison and Moise Kean possibly next on the list.
8. Yes, players hate the idea of short term success
9. No arguments there. I quite miss St Albans from time to time
10. Sort of agree, but it's irrelevant to your original premise of Everton being a step down.
11. That one may have come up at some point
(Hopefully you'll appreciate that most of that is a little bit tongue-in-cheek - even the worst anti-Everton fervour isn't going to make me ever dislike Watford)
It is a bit rose tinted.
Toffeeblue seems alright.
They are a bigger club, with more fans from a bigger city, with more fanatical support prepared to pay more money from an owner who has more money.
We can start listing why we are better when we achieve more than them, or: above them in the table and actually winning some silverware
Sorry but you're wrong.
The question was does a player see a move to Everton from Watford as a step up.
It has sweet FA to do with ancient club history and sweet FA to do with a fans perception of 'bigger club'. A player isn't going to see Everton as a great place to go because they won the FA cup in 1984.
Any player with half a brain cell will make career choices based on tangibles. What is the move going to do for their career in the here and now.