Defensive Recruitment History

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by NathWFC, Jul 18, 2020.

  1. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    This.

    And not just a hindrance to young players but squad players also. Cleverley is so far off the pace due to his lack of minutes I find it excruciating to watch.

    As for Dahlberg; when I've seen him for the U23s he doesn't fill me with confidence. I couldn't point to one area where he excelled or even stood out from the other young keepers at the club. That is over a very small sample size of games though.
     
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  2. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    He is rusty. Emi Martinez was like that when he started his loan spells and then improved and showed his potential before sinking back into obscurity until now. Dahlberg has all the right attributes to be a top class keeper but not playing truly competitive football and a large number of minutes is really hurting him like it would any player.
     
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  3. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    For this particular player I think going back to the club where he was at the academy was a big draw. Since their academy was upgraded to Category 1 he has been very vocal of how proud he is at being a part of it.

    But in general, yes, our club seem blind to players in the lower leagues in the UK.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  4. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    But do you think it was actually a decision though? He was a relative rookie British coach with already a reputation for not playing the nicest brand of football. The Pozzos had been running Udinese for many years in a certain way. I don’t believe it ever crossed their mind to keep him. If we kept him then it would’ve gone one of two ways, they keep him but stick to their tried and tested model. Dyche gets a load of players foisted on him that don’t suit how he wants to play or have the mentality to play the way he wants, he does as best he can with them but how could he be as successful as he has been now without option two. Option two being the Pozzos despite running Udinese for years in a certain way, stick with this rookie British coach but give him control over the players he brings in etc. Bearing in mind this is what he got given at Burnley yet he still got relegated once, I don’t see how either option one would’ve worked, or option two would’ve ever happened, especially with a relegation.

    I completely get what you’re saying, I just don’t see in what universe it would’ve/could’ve ever happened.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  5. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Of course it was their decision. Dyche didn't resign. The Pozzo's are not bound by some law stating they have to sack a manager after a takeover. It was their decision to do this.

    I understand what you're saying about their reasons, and this is probably correct, but it's still their decision to sack him and they made a mistake in doing this....IMO.

    It was a mistake in two ways. Dyche had proved himself by having an unbelievable season with the squad he had, so he did not deserve to be sacked just on what he had achieved previously. The second is hindsight. He's proved that his one season at Watford was not a fluke. He's gone on to show what an excellent coach/manager he is at Burnley.
     
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I completely get what you’re saying, but also I think it’s slightly contradictory.

    Keep Dyche but stick with their tried and tested model and I can’t see how he would’ve been as successful as he has been at Burnley. To say he would’ve been as successful, or more successful is contradictory, because it’s saying the pozzo model is actually better than the model of giving control to the manager and letting have a much bigger say in the type of characters he brings into the club, that’s the only way he could’ve been more successful here than at Burnley, if their model is actually better and I think most of us have been arguing that isn’t the case.

    Keeping a relative rookie coach and giving him control was never going to happen, yes technically it was a decision to be made but it never would’ve been made, not in any universe. The Pozzos were never going to rip up their tried and tested model on the basis of Dyche having one good season.

    The debate really is if (when) we go down with the benefit of hindsight, will they review how they approach things and in future look to give more control to a manager, but they were never going to make that decision at a point their approach had previously worked very well.
     
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    We'll never know what would have happened had Dyche stayed, but it's likely he would have been successful because he's a good coach that can adapt.

    Dyche would have had control of the first team. Do you think he calls up clubs and negotiates transfers at Burnley? Of course not. This never happens at elite level anymore. It's all done by specialist club negotiators and agents.

    The longer Dyche would have stayed, the more trust he would have gained and the more responsibility he would have been given. It's a natural evolution.

    The Pozzo model is to not just sack managers. It's gone that way, but it's solely dictated by results and trends. Dyche could have still been our manager, even now, under the Pozzo's. We'd have a totally different reputation. We'd have been seen as a solid, rational club, who backs their British manager.

    They had a choice when they took over the club. They made it, but no one in their right mind would choose Zola over Dyche today.
     
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Of course not, I’m not talking about literal control of the transfers, but I think it’s fair to say Dyche has a fair bit of control over who is signed and who they go after. I don’t know the intricacies of how that works, but it’s fair to say all Burnley signings are very ‘Burnley’ type players, that can’t be a coincidence. He must have a certain say in who they sign, or there must be some strong alignment between the type of players that are presented to him and the type of players he is likely to want.

    No Watford manager gets that, they get what they’re given and they have to make to most of it. Here are the players, pick the best 11 and formation that’s your job. Whether as you suggest Dyche would’ve gradually got more control over time we’ll never know, a lot would’ve been dependant on the players we have him at the start and how well he performed with them.
     
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  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I don't think that's true. Duxbury has said they always ask the head coach what type of player does he need. The coach tells him the position and characteristics of the player(s) that are required then they do the rest.
     
  10. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    **** Dyche man that argument is so boring. That Zola season was the best and most entertaining season of my lifetime, some of the football at points was breathtaking. It made me want to tell everyone "You have to watch us man, we are SO good right now!" haven't felt like that since.
     
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  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Well......didn't enjoy the Joka run-in and promotion?....man.
     
  12. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I don't believe that is true now, and hasn't been for some time, if it ever was.

    The coach gets whatever garbage the Pozzos have floating around and have to try and sew together a squad out of it.

    Look at our squad now. At least 5 or 6 players I would say who are totally useless to us. No coach would want them in his toolkit.
     
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  13. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    I've seen him play live on TV while he was in Sweden. Comparable to a young David James. Good shot stopper but didn't control the box. Flapped at crosses and his kicking wasn't the best. He is highly rated there though but has obviously shown nothing since he's been with us.
    I've championed Musso from Udinese for a while. Excellent keeper and I have no doubt will become Argentinas number one in the near future. Udinese have had some excellent young keepers that have never been linked to us.
     
  14. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I’m not sure history does say it was a mistake. Since he left we’ve been promoted, stayed in the top division and been to a cup final. I’m also still not convinced Dyche is a flair player type of manager so not sure how he would have worked with the players coming in
     
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  15. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    Only 5 or 6?
     
  16. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    It's been a mistake, but I understand these are just opinions. I think we've been successful in spite of all the managerial changes. No club wants to hire and fire coaches as much as we do. That's not the plan. It's a consequence of not showing faith through a bad run, or not hiring the right guy in the first place, only relying on the managerial bounce effect.

    Had they left well alone, I think Dyche would have been a huge success. He's proved how good he is at Burnley, who are just a northern Watford in all fairness.

    It's all hypothetical though, so no one can prove either way. It's just my opinion.
     
  17. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    It was good. But that makes your argument even weaker?


    Zola first season was fantastic football apart from the defensive stuff, can’t deny that surely?

    Then the Joka one was a wild promotion ride where signing Ben Watson and Guediora felt like securing Iniesta & Xavi.

    You think Dyche could’ve entertained you that way?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  18. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    If we win.....I'm entertained. I don't really appreciate flair football, nice passing etc, without a winning end product. Maybe it's my Barcelona trait coming out, but it's all about winning.

    I would be proud if my team showed fighting spirit, with clear limitations, but are able to frustrate teams to death and grind out 1-0 wins.

    I tell you, if we had Dyche, and we were having a Burnley type season, no one would ever complain about it. Right now, I'd love to see our team play like Burnley.
     
  19. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    Lol what?

    Isn’t that the opposite of Barcelona’s trait.

    I thought La Masia was all about the way you play and not that result. They were happy for the kids to lose the right way knowing when they grew up and filled out into men’s football they’d be way ahead of their peers.

    I’d much rather we played like Wolves or Southampton to be fair. Not that it’s a choice but you know, it can be done a different way too.


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  20. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I did always think, and I’m sure it’s been said by them (but maybe I’m imagining it) that the owners do ideally want us to play attractive football?

    We are their club and they watch us every week like we do, I always thought their utopia would be a wolves/ Southampton rather than a Burnley/Stoke.

    Obviously at the moment the football is crap, but that’s the consequence of our position and appointing a Hail Mary manager to try and get us out of a hole.

    If we didn’t actually want to play attractive football would we have ever got rid of QSF first time around?
     
  21. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    We got rid of QSF because we ended the season terribly.

    See also:

    Walter Mazzarri
    Javi Gracia


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I'm talking about first team football. You have to win and win with style. First and foremost, you have to win. When you are talking about the very best clubs, this is the mantra. It cannot be possible to achieve for many clubs outside of this.

    Occasionally you will get a club in a lower league that plays winning football with flair. Swansea did it for a while in the Championship. Norwich did it last season in the Championship. Right now, the closest non-elite club doing it are Wolves. But this will only last the length of the coach's contract. Once he goes, the style goes. Wolves were not renowned as a great footballing side previously.
     
  23. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Wolves is a tricky one to say that would happen or not. Nuno is clearly a good coach but their links with Mendes mean they’ll have access to some very good players beyond Nuno being there.
     
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  24. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I wasnt counting the ones who are useless but actually feature. Just the ones that are too useless to even be in the picture in our current circumstances.
     
  25. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Ken Sema?
     
  26. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Under His Banner

    [​IMG]
     
  27. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Dyche is a far better manager than Zola, but imagine having Dyche in charge of our quality footballers we had in the Championship. Shame in a way that we let Dyche go, you wonder if he'd have been able to work the kind of miracles he has with Burnley, but we had our success in those early Pozzo years, and what fun it was...
     
  28. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    I know someone who was Success postman in St Albans . He would tell me about the junk food
    rubbish left outside his apartment. Possibly the reason why someone with undoubted ability
    hasn't progressed.
     
  29. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Gary Cahill was available on a free last summer ?
     
  30. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Loach got a call-up to sit on the bench as third choice when someone got injured, Dahlberg actually got a cap, even if Sweden aren't that good. Point is anyway, even if it turns out Dahlberg is rubbish, we haven't had the chance to see, what was there stopping us from giving him a proper loan move away where he'd end up actually playing?
     
  31. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Would have hugely improved our defence, but would have been a sticking plaster over a gaping wound as a year or so later we'd end up having to replace him again
     
  32. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Would’ve been a great signing, but there would’ve been several clubs that would pay more in wages us not just palace. See also Danny Rose.
     
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  33. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Agreed. But do Palace pay that much more than us ?.
     
  34. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I think they pay just enough more than we would. Our time in the PL is littered with situations when clubs that are that little bit more established have just gone very slightly beyond the amount we’d pay in either transfer fees, and/or wages unfortunately. I’m not agreeing with it as a strategy but we repeatedly bail on players when the wages or transfer fee go beyond a certain point and move on to the next target.
     
  35. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    And then we waste wages on a sub standard forward line . I don't say this to dig out
    certain players as they have worked hard to get where they are . But Burnley didn't
    receive an offer they couldn't refuse !. They knew 18M for a 9 a season striker including
    3 in one match was very generous .
     

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