Gutted not to get at least a well deserved draw but if 8 days ago someone told me we'd beat Arsenal at home and give Chelsea a real scare away I'd have taken it. Going to just try to enjoy the ride because I feel proud of this team compared to last year
Carillo did **** all when he came on and made us less effective going forwards. Despite showing some good signs, he's flattered to deceive somewhat and needs to step up to prove he's the upgrade on that side we need.
How many headers have we scored this season? Okaka v Liverpool. Any others? Seems to me we’ve missed quite a few ‘sitters’. Carrillo at WBA. Another today. Richarlison today too. Etc. We don’t seem to be able to keep headers out at our end but can’t put them away up the other!
Agree, if nothing else it through our shape. Watson sold himself for the 3rd and seemed to be left as a DM in a 5 1 3 1 . I think so far this season this is about the only mistake that Silva has made.
They simple fact is that if Conte complains about a ref after a game it's big news. We saw it last week, Wenger complains about a 'scandalous' decision and you have a queue of pundits calling for a retrospective ban for Richarlison. Replays even show he was bodychecked and clipped at the same time. We've had absolutely dud decisions against us (martial dived for a match winning FK against us last season for man Utd as an example) and yet it's never discussed. It's just not news. This won't change. The cards are stacked.
A thought today for Chalobah. It must have been the fixture he was most looking forward to when the fixtures came out. Such a shame for him to be injured and miss it. Since our promotion our three matches at the Bridge have produced 17 goals and a missed penalty. Entertainment!
We have some of the worst refs in probably the whole of the main European leagues but unfortunately that isn't counterbalanced by having some of the best. One of the best would rather piss off to Saudi Arabia than ref in this league.
I'm still confused about the Carrillo header you've mentioned from today. When was it? I genuinely don't remember it. I lost my river for 2 minutes though.
Last time I went to Stamford Bridge was for the entertaining 2-2 draw on Boxing Day during our first season back in the big time. The fact I was delighted to get a point at a vastly underachieving Chelsea side, and this time round I'd have been gutted to get the same result, never mind lose 4-2, shows just how far we've come since then! This time, despite the worse result, it was a much more enjoyable and satisfying trip all round. It makes a bit of difference, when last time I was not even in Category C for away games and was only able to get a ticket on general sale in the awful (Cow)shed Lower, with its disgracefully restricted view at the back from below that overhanging roof, and this time thanks to the benefits of being in Cat B I got a really good view from about 50 feet above the corner flag. Despite generally preferring a side view, I might get a ST for next season in a similar position up in the Rookery - you actually see more of the players from both teams that way, while feeling more closely involved with the action. The atmosphere from us was electric for the most part - that crescent of cheering yellow shirts filling our end from top to bottom, especially during the sunshine-filled first 10 or so minutes, was something I won't forget in a hurry, just a shame my iPhone has been playing up and I wasn't able to take a photo. I still have mixed feelings about Chelsea as an away day though - yeah, it does make things easier for all concerned having separate gates and sets of turnstyles for different ends, but the over-zealous security and stewarding does leave a bit of a sour taste. Why the double security checks, why was the small outer pocket of my rucksack searched, did they think I was trying to smuggle in contraband or something? The seating system is a bit weird - why do they have row numbers instead of letters, why on the steps, that's the last place most people are going to look when they hurry to get to their seat a view minutes before kickoff. The fans are as apathetic as ever (probably even more so than at Old Trafford, and that's saying something) making no sustained noise until they went 3-2 up. But as footballing locations go, like with the Emirates it's in quite a pleasant area, and at least thanks to the away games cap, the price is finally down to an acceptable level, and despite the defeat, it was worth every penny of the 30 quid. It was a thoroughly enthralling game from start to finish and another very enjoyable and satisfying performance on the road, a far cry from the limp and spineless away displays I had to put up with last season (and in the end gave up on in disgust) where usually we deservedly lost and with a whimper - after about 20 minutes after unluckily going 1-0 down, I was thinking even if the result ended that way and we'd carried on the way we were playing, I would have been pleased and proud of our efforts. Anyway, my thoughts on players/ratings: Gomes: another commanding performance from him, including a brave fingertip save from Fabregas at 1-0 down, when he looked certain to score and wrap the game up already. The odd heart-in-mouth moment, like when he spilled Fabregas' shot for a corner late in the first half and then let the ball run past him in the 2nd, almost letting Batshuayi score (though it would've been offside), but he was one of many key players to ensure this was no walk in the park for Chelsea. 8 Britos: is getting on a bit in terms of speed, once or twice miscuing the ball on trying to win it, but has lost nothing in terms of his ability to read the game and play the ball out of danger. 7.5 Kabesele: the best of our central defenders, making a number of vital clearances and interceptions, and was a useful threat at the other end. 8 Mariappa: relatively weak, was a bit unsure going forward and trying to set up chances, tending to slow us down, but did make an important sliding clearance near the end when it was still 2-2. 6 Holebas: a couple of so-so set pieces apart, another excellent performance, a rock defensively. Even when he lost the ball under pressure, he always bust a gut to retrieve it, and that long throw-in for our equalizing goal was quite a surprise even for him, and obviously a delightful one. 8.5 Femenia: interchanged well with Pereyra on the right, and along with Carillo and Janmaat we finally have some healthy and creative options down that side! Makes a change from Nyom, Paredes and an out-of-position Abdi. 7.5 Doucoure: well taken goal and another solid performance driving us forward 8 Cleverley: covered a lot of ground, good scoring attempt first half, decent set-pieces. Probably my MoTM 8.5 Richarlison: obviously would be more if he'd scored at least one of those second-half sitters. Should try to cross and pass to team mates more rather than do everything himself, but he clearly worried the Chelsea defence with his pace and set up Pereyra for our 2nd and won the free kick that indirectly led to the 1st. 7 Pereyra: funnily enough despite scoring I didn't think it was his best game, I think and many agree that central midfield is his best position, as there were times when he seemed unsure whether to go for a cross or long pass. But as said, he combined nicely with Femenia, mainly defensively in first half when we were looking to initially contain them, and at least is versatile and unpredictable, both qualities many of our wide men in previous seasons have lacked. Did very well too to win that throw-in from which we equalized (ironically, I thought at the time he was unlucky not to get a corner, but would we have scored if he did?). 7.5 Deeney: much better performance than his previous and only start at West Brom, was a real handful with his pressing with no little skill, like that lovely pass to Richarlison from which he won a free kick. A bit unlucky not to score during that amazing spell of dominance in the second half when we could and should have gone two or three goals up. 8 Subs: Carillo: decent enough, but not up to the high standards he has set himself. 6.5 Watson: this is one tactical decision from Silva that I didn't quite get. He's barely played for over a season, and the few other occasions he's got significant game time since his sending off at Southampton have been a 6-1 hammering at Liverpool when already 5-0 down and one of our few good performances of last season at home to Everton, a game we ended up nearly drawing after he came on. He won a few headers but we still ended up conceding two goals, and while I wouldn't say he was at fault, we lost just about all our attacking impetus after Deeney came off. Not that I think Ben is "out of his depth", but with the way we've upgraded our midfield in so many departments, sadly it looks like his time is up. 6 Gray: I think he'll come good, but he's not the kind of player to rescue us in the dying minutes when we're losing a difficult game. N/A Overall, to go from looking likely to win out of sight, to losing 4-2 is still hard to take, but we can be very encouraged by the way we made it difficult for the defending champions from the outset, and through much more than simply keeping it tight and nicking something on the break. The 16 shots on goal stat alone shows how much we took the game to Chelsea, while being smart enough to get back and defend whenever necessary. The next couple of months will provide the acid test with plenty of winnable looking games up until the New Year, but we can be confident of getting at least a top 10 finish barring not too many major injuries with the way we've been playing, and I very much look forward to it!
We just didn't get the rub of the green today. We've won games we should have drawn, we lost today when we could have drawn. **** happens. What I do take out of it is we can beat anyone and our players look like they're enjoying themselves.
Agree, and disagree. I was going to make the point (but I didn't want to make my post even lengthier than it was) that our 3 at the back formation that so many were criticizing last week against Arsenal was actually quite a bit more effective today (maybe it works better in away games?) but there are inherently cons as well as pros to it, fortunately with the quality and depth of players we have now the pros can largely outweigh the cons. The pros are is it gives us more options out wide and more for the opposition to think about, but the negatives are that it can leave us exposed on the flanks at the back, needing our wing-backs to get back and cover, or our more forward wide men to cover them when they play on the overlap. Or it leaves our centre backs having to go over to the flanks to cover either of them. This leaves us vulnerable to counter-attacks and at times makes it difficult to build attacks when we are forced back. With the amount of pressure the central defenders are under as a result, it's not surprising that they are going to strain at times to deal with crosses. But with this adventurousness in attacking with players who this time understand how to play in such systems, it's a small trade-off when we are 5th in the league and 4th in the scoring chart with 10 different scorers.
Action replay television scrutiny (by the 4th official?). This has already been discussed half to death on another thread but it would be an important step in the right direction, if it was used properly.
You make a good observation, but I think our problem is more basic than formation. Our centre backs just aren’t up to the job, consistently, at EPL level. Britos has not been reliable for a long time now. I’ve never felt Kabasele is really good enough, and Mapps is only really a back up option at best. We can bemoan our injuries, but I don’t think it would radically improve the situation. We struggle with crosses into the box even with Prodl and Kaboul in the side. This has been a constant worry for many seasons now. We’ve had lots of coaches and many formations but the problem is the same. We need to spend some money and get a quality player for this position. Just image how good we’d be even if we became averagely decent at the back. We’re 5th with a weak defence. I think the improvement would be massive if we just did the basic things right, like attack a cross and get into the right positions.
I agree, VAR would greatly help clubs like Watford but it would not have done too much to alter the mindset of today’s referee. He wanted to officiate and dictate the game so it went a certain way. VAR would have helped us with the corner which led to their first goal but I don’t think we could have reviewed fouls given to Chelsea, or the ones ignored for Watford. He wouldn’t have sent off Rudiger for a clear second yellow. He wouldn’t have booked Hazard for kicking the ball away like he did to Femenía. VAR will help but it won’t completely stop an official from being biased.
Yes I agree, Chelsea were asserting themselves and pushing us back. So putting on a defensive mf for our lone striker just invites so much more pressure. Surely pushing them back is better. Get Gray on to run the channels. Force them back. Or Capoue to reinforce the attacking mf. Watson is so defensive. When he came on I said to everyone around me it was the wrong thing to to.
How many good centre-backs are there in the UK? If Cahill, Stones and , for God's sake, Smalling are the best that England can come up with then these high-quality replacements are going to have to come from a long way away. We tend to defend narrow and that invites crosses in.
I would have every confidence that we could find someone. Prodl is good enough and Kaboul would be ok if he was more consistent and injury free. This is the level I’m thinking of and this would be enough. I saw Savic last week and he looked very good for RSB. We had him on our books. He’s only 21 and maybe someone we should have kept.
My view before the game was that this game was a free hit for us. We have had a great season so far so let's go for it and see if we can come away with something. The lads didn't come away with any points but I'm happy with the performance as a whole and the chances we create and the good passing football being served up. On another day we would have scored the missed chances and won comfortably. Onwards and upwards.
I was thinking about that at half time and I'm not convinced it would. Or rather, the video would, but I'm not sure a decision to give a corner would be reviewable. And then to go back after the goal has the potential to get messy big time.
With that corner, I don't think the lino had a clue, he just kept his flag down. The ref just guessed, and obviously guessed in favour of the bigger club.
Is half the problem with our defence that Holebas doesn’t really do much defending and let’s too many crosses in?
No reason not to have a real time TMO. In the time it took them to make a decision, the ref talks to the lino anyway why not just ask the TMO. Also, Hazard should be referred to the review panel, he appealed for a corner when he knew it wasn't, so he's deceiving the referee.
I agree, overall VAR would probably not have saved us today. It is hard to prove the referee was deliberately directing the game Chelsea’s way, even with a review system. The ref was making judgement calls and a review cannot be used to question a judgement call. It can only be used to overturn a decision that can be factually proved. The corner decision is probably too minor to review, unless a captain can have a couple of challenges. We can never prove the referee would have sent off a Watford player had he done what Rudiger did, but one suspects he would have. He ignores when a Chelsea player kicks the ball away to waste time but books a Watford player when he does it. This is the closest you can get from today’s game to prove his inconsistency and unbalanced officiating.
You must have been watching a different game to me if you thought Holebas "didn't do much defending", he worked hard throughout and consistently denied their forwards space - even when he was left on his own as the game became stretched towards the end he never gave up. I only remember one instance early on in the first half when he let a cross in, and to be fair world class players are always going to find a way of landing crosses at least on occasion, no matter how close their markers are to them.
Interesting battles at both ends of the pitch between the CF and the central CB of both sides. Luiz bossed Deeney . Outmuscled and outclassed him . Deeney wasn't bad , he just got outplayed . Kabasele bossed Morata . Morata did not get a sniff and became so frustrated he started getting very niggly and had to be taken off . Great achievement from Kabasele as Morata has been awesome this season.
That was a hard loss to take, but it's often the price to pay when a team don't take their chances against any of the top sides in the league. We could've been 4-1 up and out of sight if we were more clinical. Thought we played excellently for large parts of the game and a draw or win wouldn't have flattered us. Pereyra, Richarlison, Femenia and Doucoure particularly impressed me. The corner for the 1st goal wasn't a corner, but that doesn't excuse us from not defending it properly. Human error is just as much a part of officiating as it is for the players. Every player gave a good account of themselves apart from Watson who seemed to do everything he tried completely wrong. That substitution probably cost us at least a point and I can't for the life of me understand why Watson was used instead of Capoue? Chelsea had just started to take control of possession in midfield and Deeney was blowing so I can see why Silva Deeney of for a midfielder, but why Watson? Hopefully he's learnt from that mistake. Anyway we would've beat most teams today so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. 3 points against Stoke next week will make me happy
Got home at about 4.30 and had time to think and calm down. Expecting this to be a bit of a long'un.... Was very surprised to see the return to 3-4-3 after last week and especially as it was matching Chelsea who usually pick teams apart who match them for it. Still a bit confused by the persistence to try Pererya out wide, but recognise that Cleverley has been fantastic this season. Thought we started off solidly, with some good patches of play establishing ourselves as a team that were here to play and really let Chelsea know it, up until the first goal. How on earth the lino doesn't see that's a goal kick is beyond me, it truly truly is, but fair play to Pedro took the goal really really well. Something I've noticed this season is that there are shades of Mazzarri lurking at every time there's a significant "injustice" with discipline. Against City it was the same, Holebas gets himself a stupid booking, whilst Mapps also gets booked for a foul that didn't at the time deserve a yellow but they've been around long enough to know better. At that point it was headless chickens for a little bit. Chelsea time and time again kept cutting us open by quickly switching the ball from our right flank to the left, Holebas was either isolated against Hazard and Azpilicueta, or both had the freedom of Stamford Bridge over there, it was surprising they didn't capitalise on this. Turned to my mate and said that wasn't sure 3 at the back was giving us defensive solidity that we needed at that point but I was wrong as it proved a platform for the next 30 in game minutes. We went forward and were wondeful attacking wise, Pererya and Kiko linked up pretty well as we carved out a few half chances before getting the goal through Doucs who just seemed to smash it from where I was standing, cue absolute bedlam. If you were in rows 17 or 19 on the corner, I do apologise, and thank you for picking me up off the floor after both goals, much appreciated. Went in at half time drawing deservedly, and the atmosphere picked up immensely. There was belief. So much belief. I can't blame Richarlison at all for missing the chances, he was pushed, shoved, kicked and won free kicks while not having the best of games. He should have scored but considering his contribution so far, I'm not exactly gonna hold it against him, it'll be a learning curve. I need to watch the second goal back as I don't remember it hugely, but the cut back from Richie seemed to take years in the stands to find Pererya, but when it did, **** me. Quite simply we were destroying the champions at their own home, but it wasn't enough. We should've been 3 or 4-1 up, but as time wore on, Willian had such an affect on the game, and taking Troy off.... they've clearly worked on something in training with Carrillo and Richie going up top but it didn't work, especially as Janmaat looked like he was getting ready before Watson came on. Chelsea came back, as Hazard spent more time on the floor than on the ball, Cleverley tried his hardest but gave the ball away a lot in the last 10, and they picked us off. Marco is young and will learn a lot from today, he's not Walter and keeps making the same mistakes so far, so let's have him make the odd mistake to improve us going forward. The fans were spectacular today, really got behind the side, especially Richie after his missed chances. Hopefully the team are hurting and put one on Stoke next week. Tldr; Ref was ****, Marco made a mistake but will learn, bedlam for the goals (thanks for picking me up off the floor), we should've won and been 4-1 up.
