Ched Evans

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by Rostrons Red Card, Aug 13, 2014.

  1. Shakespearo

    Shakespearo Reservist

    If the Travel Lodge porter who was listening at the door is to be believed, it was Ched getting his head down that started all his troubles.
     
  2. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Sorry I have to disagree. The case against someone should be strong enough without having to bolster it with other accusations. If the way rape cases are brought up and treated isn't up to scratch and that is preventing people from reporting them, then the way they are handled and investigated needs to be addressed. Fair enough if there sufficient evidence to charge and go to trial, make it public, but people who do not report rape cases are a part of the issue. They are letting criminals get away with it to attack someone else.
     
  3. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Cheers.

    I'm wondering if it is time to further define the crime. In the same way we have Murder, Manslaughter etc? It would go some way to temper how these things are reported.
     
  4. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    There are a whole group of footballers who have committed criminal acts.

    Should they be allowed to return to the game ? They have served their time after all. However their status as footballers and being in the public eye seems to distort matters.

    Many people who have committed serious crimes find it hard to regain employment. Footballers seem a special case particularly if the player in question is seen as talented. While plenty of football fans have scruples the most vociferous opponents of that player re-entering the game will be fans of opposing sides in this case members of the Wednesday fraternity.

    With the large wage packets most footballers earn it seems to many that those returning to the game after serious misdemeanours (rape/manslaughter)are getting away scot-free and the age old argument of they are role models is brought up. And should these role models be people who by their actions are far from being role models.

    Ethically I feel those who have committed serious transgressions such as McCormick, Hughes, rape as with Evans or a serious of acts which are distasteful to say the least such as Nile Ranger should not be allowed to return to the game even if they have served their sentences and professed remorse.
     
  5. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    These footballers inadvertently tend to limit the amount of clubs that will give them a second chance and will get hit in the pocket accordingly. The case of Ched Evans is a strange one, football is very male orientated and most males (that I know) believe he's been stitched up and if he's guilty of rape then we probably all are from our own misspent youths. I know I've picked up and have sh@gged girls that have been drinking to the extent his so called victim did and guess what? none of them ever accused me of anything (but then again I'm not rich or famous). If they have regrets (which I really doubt), they will surely blame themselves and so they should! .... One thing's for sure, I've never had sex with a girl that was incapable or that said she didn't want to; That would be rape in my eyes.

    Unless it's hyenious then everybody deserves a second chance but more than that is questionable.
     
  6. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

  7. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    There's actually a longish thread about this around somewhere, if you're interested.
     
  8. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

    Sorry, not been on here much, although I did have a quick scout around and couldn't find it.
     
  9. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Opinion was mixed as to his guilt.

    Post release though, I don't see why he shouldn't be employed - it's a decision for Sheffield Utd. If the club are happy with the adverse damage to their brand, then why shouldn't he be allowed to work?
     
  10. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

  11. simms

    simms vBookie

    Just briefly skimming that site, early on it says that the defendant claims she doesn't remember anything apart from a brief episode in the takeaway. Surely that suggests that she was not in a fit state to consent to sex? The site just wreaks of **** shaming and victim blaming to me.
     
  12. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    Judy from Richard and Judy got a lot of sh*t for sticking up for this.

    In my eyes, she made a mistake felt cheap and horrible in the morning so decided to say it was rape.
     
  13. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Fair point (as we saw with Deeney...)

    Whatever he does afterwards won't please some.

    I notice Evans had a "partner in crime" but they got found not guilty - why was that?
     
  14. simms

    simms vBookie

    She did the same thing as Richard Dawkins who was crucified for it (pun intended). Dawkins said that there are varying degrees to how bad a crime can be, so did Judy.

    It's views like yours that stop alleged victims from coming forward because they don't think they'll be believed.
     
  15. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    That's just one of the strange things about the decisions in this case. If she was incapable of giving consent from the point of the kebab shop onwards, why wasn't Clayton McDonald found guilty as well?
     
  16. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I guess there is logic for the jury that an tipsy girl wanting to come back to your hotel room is a more credible defence consent wise, than if you burst into the room after your mate had finished and had a go yourself. I'm not sure I agree with their decision from what I have read about the case, but I understand it.
     
  17. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    I guess she chose to go back with McDonald : there was evidence that a (very brief) relationship was formed where she made the decision to go back with him. She had various opportunities to get away from him but chose not to. She was even trying to sobre up around him.

    Ched was not knowingly invited by her and just turned up at a hotel, where he seemingly shagged her and left. Two men telling her to do something in a hotel room (which she seemingly would not want when she was sobre) is something, but Ched paid and booked the room, set it up, and then coerced her when she was drunk and alone in the room with two fairly intimidating characters.

    Would she have gone back with both of them if they told her upfront that they both wished to have sex with her at the same time? Probably not.

    Turning up when a drunk girl has collapsed on a bed and having sex with her is far far worse than chatting a girl up and going home with her when she's drunk.
     
  18. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    She made no complaint of rape. I understand she maintained throughout that she had no memory of the events at the hotel.
     
  19. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    How do you know she had collapsed on a bed when she says she can't remember a thing whatsoever? At the trial the defence were unable to use the fact that she'd cried rape before and also her previous sexual activity. The fact that one of the men was guilty and one innocent is also very strange.
     
  20. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Probably because she didn't 'cry rape' on this occasion so how would that be relevant? And mike's first 2 paragraphs are as good an explanation as I can think of over the one guilty, one not guilty thing.

    Don't lose sight of the fact that a jury sat through all the evidence and unanimously convicted Evans.
     
  21. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    The guy was charged with rape that's how it's relevant, even if it was the Police who decided the charge. Mike does explain it well but if 1 guy is accused of raping her then the other guy who's also having sex with the girl at the same time is completely 100% innocent?
    The jury thing is strange as well. No unanimous verdict could be reached after 4 hours, but with the threat of a 5th week of jury service on a Friday night suddenly 2 unanimous verdicts reached in 20 minutes? Something about that alone is wrong.
     
  22. simms

    simms vBookie

    As far as I know, when two people are drunk and both are unable to consent, the one who makes the initial move and initiates sex is the one who is guilty of rape. Perhaps there was evidence to suggest that in ones case she initiated, and in the other the guy initiated.

    Personally I think if he had sex with a girl who was too drunk to consent, then he raped her. I don't think anybody would deny that. The question is if someone is too drunk to consent, and if she was at the stage where she couldn't remember anything, that's a pretty good indication that she was unable to consent.
     
  23. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I agree with most of this post - but the thing that troubled me about this conviction was the fact she allegedly said "***** me harder" with Evans and actively changed positions (according to his defence website). Of course no way of proving this either way so perhaps the jury didn't believe the testimony in which case fair enough. But if that is what really happened then you'd surely feel pretty hard done by if you were charged after the victim seemed at the time a very willing participant?
     
  24. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    So your guessing basically. Heck of a statement to make.
    He was found guilty by people who heard everything both sides had to say. I'm not sure if he ever tried appeal but if he didn't it says something about his guilt and if he did, whoever decided if he can or cannot appeal has not seen anything either to say the jury were wrong.
    I think what most people don't like is not the fact he is going to be given a chance to work, which clearly needs to happen, but that he is going to do a job that not only pays a lot but is also a job where people are looked up to, especially by kids.
    Would I want a convicted rapist playing for my club, definitely no.
     
  25. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Well judging by a variety of accounts that said she was swaying and struggling to walk.

    It would be very easy for a jury to assume that somebody too drunk to stand or walk properly would eagerly take the opportunity to lay down on a bed when presented one in a hotel room.

    Sleeping with any girl in that state is wrong. But if you chat her up and she voluntarily goes back with you that is something different. She has given some inclination to him that she wanted something to happen.

    Entering a hotel room after she’s had sex with somebody else and 'having a go' is something else entirely. I don't think he physically forced himself upon her, but he didn’t have, or try to gage, any knowledge that she actually wanted what was about to happen.

    The intent to get to know somebody and persuade them to sleep with you is different from Ched’s attempt to purely take advantage of the situation.
     
  26. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

    Why is the law so one-sided? Did the men ever consent? Were they of a fit state of mind to HER, and in HER opinion able to consent knowingly what they were consenting to?

    Feminists never seem to raise this issue do they...
     
  27. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    I agree with you for the most part but the point is that McDonald was charged as well. So the jury has concluded that she gave consent to sex with McDonald despite the fact that she says she didn't and she has no memory from the kebab shop onwards.

    Remember that according to the evidence, she didn't meet McDonald until 4am that evening. When she was apparently very drunk and stated herself that she couldn't remember anything after 3am.

    This is the big problem as far as I'm concerned. If you say Evans raped the girl because of the above facts then you have to say that about McDonald did too.
     
  28. iamofwfc

    iamofwfc Squad Player

    my first instinct was that he was scum and no footy club should touch him. From the evidence and the trust I have in the the british justice system and looking at the case, in my opinion i don't reckon it would have even gone to court if he was not a footballer, I would never defend a rapist but he does seem to have a bit of a raw deal, hope I am wrong.
     
  29. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

    Exactly. Both men were charged, therefore the victim must have made the complaint that she was raped by both. Equal treatment from that point onwards.
     
  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Yes but the term 'crying rape' at best means 'has previous alleged someone raped her'. How is that relevant is she's not alleging anything on the present occasion? It's not. It's just an attempt to smear her by implying she's easy.

    I've never served on a jury. I know people who have though and I'm told some of things that are said and go on are beyond belief. That said it's open to any juror to approach an usher or the judge at any time during or after a trial if something dodgy has gone on. I believe they're even explicitly told this.

    The bit in bold is often overlooked by people who read through factual accounts of cases. It's basically intangible but it goes to the very heart of why we have juries.

    It's lop sided because physically speaking the vast majority of men are bigger and more able to assert themselves than women. Therefore the burden of consent falls on the man to prove. Maybe if people hadn't been so irresponsible for decades previously, taking advantage of vulnerable women and getting away with it because the issue of consent was too easily circumvented, we wouldn't need it to be like that.

    Arguably it's the decision on McDonald that was perverse, not the Evans one.
     
  31. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

    First and foremost, physicality isn't always a contributory factor to rape. Stranger rape is in fact the least common of rape and it's through this method it's most likely that physicality played a part in the ordeal. Secondly, men can be weaker than women, and it's discriminative to think otherwise. Thirdly, men being subject to abuse by women is a growing area. Let's not pretend that women are never violent psychomaniacs.
     
  32. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    The prosecution didn't use the fact that she'd alleged rape before because of exactly the reason you state, the defence would have gone to town on her sexual past and attempted to prove she was easy. If she had a clean sexual past then I'd wager they'd have used it.

    Good point, have to agree.
     
  33. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    You asked why it was one sided. I gave the reason. But to answer your points:

    (1) You seem to have a fixed idea of what rape should be. That's fine but the law disagrees. If a man does nothing else than stand in a bedroom doorway and says he won't leave until his girlfriend has sex with him, and then she does even thought she didn't want to, is that still a situation in which 'physicality played a part'? I'd say yes.
    (2) Ridiculous thing to say. If the man in a case is manifestly weaker than the burden will be easier to discharge. It's an evidential presumption but can be overcome. It's certainly not discriminative to say that in the vast majority of cases men are more physically powerful than women - it's basic evolution.
    (3) What does that have to do with sexual offences?
     
  34. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Yes. I agree. More to follow.
     
  35. Orny Arry

    Orny Arry Guest

    1. Of course, but not all cases of rape relate to physicality. In the case of Evans, physicality didn't play a part.

    2. I'm saying that it shouldn't be assumed that a man is stronger than a woman in every case. This would be untrue and misleading.

    3. Abuse on men by women is growing, or at least it's being reported more. This evidences the fact that women can also over-power men. This is particularly commonplace with vulnerable men.
     

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