Can the Current Pozzo Model Work in Practice?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by KelsoOrn, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:53 AM.

  1. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    This is planning re-branding gold and it's practically writing itself:
    'Aarry the Aardvark and the surreal chant of "Come on you 'Varks*"

    *This was the favourite word of a 2000 AD writer/artist - Simon Bisley (I think).
     
    Jossy and cthulhu like this.
  2. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Academy Graduate

    Like how Bournemouth are suddenly named AFC Bournemouth
     
    Bwood_Horn likes this.
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    You did more than mention a little of tweaking. Not sure why you're trying to distance yourself from your own comments. Below is what you wrote and it's more than just a little bit of tweaking. You are quite scathing of Gino.

    I've got increasingly pissed off now with Gino's et al endless excuses that it's always the other guys fault. ********.

    Now we have, as others have suggested elsewhere, hired a YES man. Make you happy Gino?

    Quit blaming the incumbent head coach for every demise.

    Quit hanging out at London Colney and getting in the team's face.
     
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    ....and where did I say you were attacking me?

    Saying we've not been in the bottom three, alludes to not being a struggling side, or else why mention it? I was pointing out you can be struggling without being in the bottom three. Being in the bottom three, I would call failing.
     
  5. Burnsy

    Burnsy Reservist

    Surely we can only truly say we are struggling if we know what the objectives are?

    Because so far they range from breaking into the top-8/euro spots to just staying in the Premier League.
    Personally I think they should just be about showing a gradual improvement each year which can be possible regardless of whether you finish 8th or 14th. And as much as I don’t think we are ‘struggling’, I don’t think we are showing enough progression each year.
     
    Chumlax likes this.
  6. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Except they adopted that name in 1972.
     
  7. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    They know the system and the model. That will have been fully explained to them prior to them putting pen to paper. But do they know EXACTLY how minimalist their role will be prior to starting the job?

    I'd suggest that Marco didn't but prior to the Everton approach he'd come to the conclusion that he'd been sold a pup. And that was the push factor as well as the obvious pull ones. So he was already a bit of low-hanging fruit ripe for plucking despite the appalling timing.

    Anyway, it keeps on happening. What's the common factor?
     
  8. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I would say we're struggling mainly because of our defensive fragility. It undermines everything.

    The past 3 seasons we had 44 points, then 40 now only 37 and are unlikely to beat last season. To be improving you need to be attaining more points. Forget league placement, we need to be picking up more points and I believe we should be able to do this.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  9. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Sounds like tweaking to me.
     
  10. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Sounds like slaughtering the owner to me.
     
  11. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    I didn't say you said I was attacking you!

    Not every point made on this forum is necessarily a direct reply to another person's point.

    You said we are a struggling side.

    I just added a bit of additional information and positivity to that point, without ever disagreeing with it.

    I then said about not every comment being one that attacks you. That was an independent comment from me. It wasn't based on anything you'd said in your previous post.
     
  12. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Academy Graduate

    Only to be top of the league. When Accrington Stanley rise up, it'll be ABC Bournemouth.
     
    Bwood_Horn, Keighley and Malteser like this.
  13. NemoNemo

    NemoNemo First Year Pro

    Something is not working and I think it's both a combination of the head coach recruitment & Deeney. I'm not singling out Deeney as a bad player, etc, I just think that his stature at the club is becoming a curse. he is turning into the wrong kind of fan favourite - the player you love to hate. Does more work with his mouth than on the pitch at the moment, but because of what he has done previously he gets the start ahead of others. Unfortunately for us, there are not many good options to replace Denney, but I am fully in camp Gray. We play better as a team with him and he stretches defences to create space for others. Head coach to blame for picking the team on this one. Recruitment are to blame for not strengthening our defence as much as we strengthen our midfield. We made some great signings in midfield but only signed femenia who has ay really quality. Massive overhaul needed in defence this summer with real investment, not bargain hunting. Getting rid of Graca isn't the answer either, we need a summer of consistency and the club to fully back him and all work together to get players in who Gracia wants, not just randoms that come available and get rid of the dead wood, such as Britos, Sinclair, Zeegelar, etc.
     
    The PozzMan likes this.
  14. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    So lets beat them at their own game:
    Æthelstan's Watford.
     
    Ágætis Byrjun likes this.
  15. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Deeney's behind it all!
     
  16. Jossy

    Jossy First Year Pro

    Posted this in another thread a while back, but seems appropriate here - made a table showing how long the current sides in the Prem have been there, and when they were last relegated:

    Top division league table consecutive years.jpg
    Outside of the top 7, the average stint in the premier league works out at 4.4 seasons. Bear in mind we're about to lose the 8 years from West Brom, most likely the 10 years from Stoke, and possibly the 6 years from Southampton, meaning the average will come down even more.

    If the Pozzo model was to keep us in the premier league - you could argue it's succeeded, as going by these stats - next season is our last. Aside from the teams at the top of this table, it shows how hard it is to stay in this division for any serious length of time.

    If the Pozzo's continue to defy the odds, then we have to conclude that the model works regardless of how it works (and I'm firmly on the side of wanting a bit of stability with a flexible, tactically astute coach that plays entertaining football).

    Like a lot on here feel - if we're replacing the coach again this summer then we really need to get the right one as sooner or later, we're not going to have a good enough start to sustain our mid season collapse, which has seen us produce relegation form during the remainder of those seasons in all 3 prem years so far.
     
  17. Jossy

    Jossy First Year Pro

    Ahh, Simon Bisley - spent many any art lesson copying his ABC Warriors artwork, much to the annoyance of my art teacher who insisted we paint bowls of fruit:eek:!
     
  18. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese First Year Pro

    Well, they're not the only examples: When Sir GT left Watford for the first time his replacement Dave Bassett was a disaster. Since Sir Alex left Man U They've struggled (in relative terms). It's famously hard to follow the Lord Mayor's Show. This is presumably why Arsenal are so reluctant to part with Arsene.
    {But that doesn't mean I am sorry we had Graham Taylor - no way!}
     
  19. Sting

    Sting Reservist

    Diamond Watford would see us start a respectable 7th and we could try to stay there :)
     
  20. PotGuy

    PotGuy Forum Fetishist

    But what else is there that would define it as minimalist? There is a transfer committee, they won't be able to dictate transfers as they see fit, and the club sometimes buys players as investments and loans them out to the Argentinian second division. But, ala Richarlison, Carillo, Jurado etc they might be able to get one or two of their own choices in.

    Other than that, they have their own staff, they have their own training, they can bring up players from the academy, they select the team, they select the tactics. They are completely independent in everything playing-related but being able to dictate playing staff transfers, which they know when they join.

    Whether they like it or not a few weeks into the job is a different question, but I don't buy that they are being sold a pup. They clock onto the fact that we have a playing squad with absolutely zero commitment to the club after the first bad result and they don't know how to deal with it, and then when the players continue to not give a shi t the manager is the one who gets the boot. At least that has been the case since the players downed tools when they realised QSF was on his way out. That, IMO, is the common factor.

    The Pozzos need to change the mentality a little to fit the nature of English football I think. Find a manager they genuinely believe in and actually commit to him, get rid of the passengers in the squad we have collected in the last two years and concentrate on getting good value players for the starting eleven. If we spent £10m on one great starter instead of £10m on three useless idiots from nowhere who have never even heard of the club it would be more cost-effective in the long run.

    It might cost a bit more to pay off the manager if he doesn't work out, but considering we have had £17m to blow on the likes of Amrabat, Okaka and Oulare alone I think it would be money well spent to get the club out of its short-term mindset.
     
  21. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese First Year Pro

    Yes.
    Two big problems in employing people in a business (and, yes, there are others of course):
    1 How to recruit the right people.
    2 How to motivate your employees approriately.
    Neither of these is directly related to to the subject of the business, both of them are incredibly important.
     
  22. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    We should leave that to the Udinese fans.
     
  23. wingco

    wingco Academy Graduate

    They would be buggered. I'd say Burnley less so as they seem to have a quite robust setup, but even still Dyche is the one that binds the whole club together.

    Muff would be a total mess, and I could honestly see them slipping down the divisions when It happens. Howe calls all the shots there, but unlike Burnley they tend to throw enormous sums of money at their players, so It could be recipe for disaster.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  24. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    What if Cardiff and Aston Villa are promoted? Need to think these things through Sting.
     
  25. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn Squad Player

    The question you really need to be asking is how would you feel if you woke up one morning and heard on the radio the Pozzos were pulling out and the club was for sale...
     
    oxhey67 likes this.
  26. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    Honestly, it's just a game of football. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
     
  27. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn Squad Player

    But the buzzer tone thing of you quoting me has just woken me from my dozing off...too ironic.
     
  28. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Depends who they were selling to......
    ps its great that the first few images that come up on a "google image search" are the helmeted version of the great man....he'll hate that.
    upload_2018-4-16_14-16-18.jpeg
     
  29. I Blame Bassett

    I Blame Bassett Squad Player

    What an odd thing to do!
    I imagine the fruit tasted quite nice before it was painted?
     
  30. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    I'd feel like sh.t.
     
  31. oxhey67

    oxhey67 Reservist

    PotGuy mentions where I think the model has changed slightly for recent coaches in that obvious managers picks have come to the club.

    In Silva's case Carillo was definitely his and it sounded like Richarlison was too.

    For other transfers I'd say WFC operate how the majority of top level clubs do in the modern era, certainly on the continent, where a coach says he needs Position X strengthening, a short list is drawn up and a player comes in. It won't necessarily be the first or second choice on the list but he'll get a player for the position he asked for.

    Shteve McClaren spoke about how he had no say whatsoever at Twente in Holland (other than specifying positions) and he won the league in his first season I think.

    I had a dig at our supporters expectations on another thread which I stand by but would now add...

    Having expectations and ambition is necessary, what would be the point of supporting or playing otherwise?, but the further up the league we go then I think those expectations and ambitions need to be tempered because the clubs around us are generally that much bigger and more established. This makes further progress far more difficult to attain.
    Progress right now is staying in this division. WFC had never done that before (in Premiership years).
    The next progression will be consecutive seasons where the club is not in any danger of relegation at all.
     
    sydney_horn likes this.
  32. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn Squad Player

    You are right of course. We could get lucky and be bought out by some Indian chicken farmers say, or an American softball league franchise holder, or we could have any other owner we've already had since SEJ got bored with us. Hopefully they will sell to a petrodollar rich Arab or a vodka loving oligarch or even a Thai duty free shop consortium whose collective interest and knowledge of football is on a par with Queen Victoria's.
     
  33. The uninformed

    The uninformed Academy Graduate

    You've hit the nail on the head. Promotion seasons are always fun because you win far more than you lose, and we all prefer a win! The problem is that, after promotion, you find yourself up against better opposition and get despondent at the weekly win rate. The elation of promotion means less than it should because that was all in the past and all you're left with is a team that is once again playing defensive football with a view to grinding out a 0-0.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like us to play in the Championship with our current squad and then I'd probably like all the players a whole lot more!!
     
    Malteser likes this.
  34. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Academy Graduate

    For the fans, a healthy club is way more important than a healthy team.
     
  35. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk Squad Player

    Seems like they were slaughtering Gino, not Giampaolo
     

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