So what about Pedro's stats when he has been anonymous? Or other players who havent had a good game, where are they after games then? Dont see them coming out from you much. You know he's back from a hamstring injury right? You know that depending on the tear footballers have to manage that leg in initial matches to avoid recurrence of injury right? You know the front 3 were largely ineffective last night not just 1 right? No i guess you don't. I await the usual "he's always been crap" default responses from you and/or the usual suspects.
I think that Sarr needs to be told how good he is. And to play his natural game. I'm not sure this is happening at the moment. Arm round the shoulder not the same telling off as some of the others might get.
Seems to be said a few times that we are the best team after each game. And they all fear our attack. Shame most of the time there actually isn’t any fear !
There are some players you don't miss until they are not there . The type of player that drives the team forward from midfield . An Abdoulaye Doucoure type of player With regard to Chalaboah , yes it wasn't his finest 90 minutes but he never hid or disappeared.
Pedro's stat last night compared to Gray - and this in a game when he arguably made little visible impact after drifting central a bit too much: Shots: 2 / 0 Dribbles attempted: 7/0 Dribbles completed: 4/0 Touches: 64 / 15 Passes attempted: 43 / 11 Accurate passes: 32 / 5 Passing accuracy: 74% / 45% Headers won: 2 / 0 Tackles attempted: 4 / 0 Tackles won: 2 / 0 Interceptions: 1 / 0 Fouls committed: 1 / 2 Fouls won: 1 / 0 Pretty damning. "But Gray only played 65 minutes", I hear you shout from the rooftops....well here's Deeney's stats vs. Gray for comparison in his 25 minutes on the field: Touches: 18 / 15 Accurate passes: 6 / 5 Aerials won: 3-0 Fouls won: 2-0 Even if Deeney wasn't making the right runs or if he was off the pace, at least he offered something in terms of winning the ball in the air and drawing fouls, leading to FK opportunities - something which Gray failed to achieve once in more than twice the number of minutes on pitch.
Which has been said after every game we haven't won this season. Still waiting for them and the fans to realise.
Do you agree his performance last night was shocking? Poor control and dreadful pass execution. One of the worst displays I’ve seen in recent years. I’m willing to give him a chance but you really seem detached from reality on this.
Stats don't tell you everything and should be only used as a guide to aid what you actually see with your own eyes . But what in the name of all things Holy are people looking at when comparing Pedro and Gray's contribution ?
One things is now clear from this thread, the forum is pretty much split on the team at roughly this ratio: Bedwetters COGs Manatleisure
Yes. Neither Troy nor Gray can play on their own up front so they should either play together or with Perica. Perica might be able to play up top on his own and that could be the best option, but I haven't seen enough of him yet.
Let’s be honest that was garbage last night .... yes better than QPR but that was abysmal especially the second half. No team has ever been promoted from the Championship employing the tactics that we currently are. There are 2 things you need to do to get promoted 1. Win the battle and earn the right to play ....each individual has to be committed to winning their personal battles. 2. You have to play attacking football, with pace and intensity. Currently we don’t do enough of point 1 and we do nothing at all of point 2 We are at a crossroads both on and off the pitch and currently I am starting to feel we are hurtling towards abject failure again .....we are 13 games in and for 12 of them we have be nowhere near good enough and for 1 we were decent. All we seem to do is pass the ball backwards and sideways ..... no speed to our play, nothing incisive or creative, I can’t see any purpose to our play, not pattern, and hence very few shots and fewer goals ...... there is no ambition to win the game, we are set up not to loose it. Ivic talks about changing the mentality of the players to a winning one, yet employs negative, rigid, boring tactics. Ivic’s tactics makes QSF look like Klopp! How the hell can we be so slow at getting the ball forward with players such as Sarr, Pedro and when available Sema. The only lad that seems to try and play forward and commit people is Quina. I’m not surprised some players look **** ......by the time they get the ball they are surrounded and have one option to pass it backwards as a) we have allowed the opposition to get men behind the ball and get organised and b) because we have no runners from midfield gambling or busting a gut to support the attack. Gray was dump last night and he can’t trap a bag of sand ....but he’s been with us for 3 or 4 years now surely we know he’s not a lone striker by now ...... he needs to play off of Deeney or Perica to have a chance of being effective. He should be running onto flicks and through balls aplay facing the goal. Yes he is limited and his confidence is shot to pieces but it’s a bit like asking a painter and decorator to paint your portrait .... yes he is a painter but not that type of painter. 1/2 of our side isn’t good enough let’s face facts and it’s not just football ability, but their athletic ability. For me the midfield is a big problem and the following big names need to go - Capoue, Cleverly, Chalobah. The midfield needs some urgent surgery as it is not good enough it’s too static there is no driving runner, no one who commits a man, no one who moves the ball quickly and positively nat a naive Quina who losses possession to often. I’m also not sure on attitude ... or perceived attitude - Deeney has been a great servant and player but his mind appears to be on developing a media career. Ben Foster seems more interested in riding his bike and gives the impression that football is football, que sera sera. We all know there’s more to life than football, but at least look like it hurts a bit. Sarr looks so miserable all the time and like he doesn’t interact with his team mates at all. There is no togetherness and we look like a team that’s waiting to fall apart completely. It’s so frustrating and sad to see. Then there is the board of directors- yes we are strapped for money now .... but we are in a **** or bust moment ...... either gamble and invest in the team and by that I mean new, young, hungry players - not pensioners like Murray who are well past their best (seriously if that’s what our great scouting network comes up with then god help us). The other option is to be honest with us and say .... we are in a period of transition and this will take time and we have a 3yr plan to get back to the prem ..... because I will tell you now this side, this manager and these tactics are not going up this season - not a chance so stop kidding yourself. This side and club has been rotting for 3 years and now it’s falling by the wayside. Face facts .... the board have made a huge mess of this and it isn’t changing anytime soon .... if anything it’ll get worse before it gets better - such as we will sell Sarr and be lucky to get 1/2 what we paid. If I was Pozzo, Duxbury and whoever else I’d get a blank piece of paper and start again from top to bottom - because this turgid crap is making things worse not better
Are you really suggesting that anyone should play at half pace to protect themselves when they return from injury? If they are not fully fit they shouldn't be in the team. I've been desperate for Gray to 'come good' ever since he signed and particularly as Deeney has gradually declined but I'm sorry, there's really no defending his performance last night.
This is just crackers. He played 3/4 of the game and completed five passes. Five! No shots, no dribbles, no headers won, no tackles even attempted let alone won, no interceptions, no free kicks won for the team. Sarr and Pedro were both bad too, as my earlier post stated. But this display from Gray was on another level of appalling. It's not just the stats either, it's the basic lack of competence you can see from watching the game. Not only did he not complete passes but the manner in which he fluffed them, totally missed the ball, lost control, was beaten to a ball by a defender. But the reason why it's worth posting the stats this time is because it so starkly shows how little he offered the team last night, it almost beggars belief that you could be that ineffective as an £18m professional footballer. It was one of the worst ever performances I've seen from a Watford player. It's a very strange hill to die on, particularly with the completely evidence-less claim that he's not fully fit.
It's still early days in terms of how long the coach has had with the squad at his disposal and also in terms of the very long Championship season so I'm happy to wait and see how things pan out between now and the new year, BUT we are very boring to watch so far. I'm amazed that Ivic hasn't found a way to get even 90% out of Sarr (which would destroy this league) and to some degree the same can be said for Pedro. I'm clueless as to how we are trying to attack at the moment. So I guess my post makes me a fence sitter rather than a bedwetter or happy clapper? Is there a new term for fence sitter as this is old and boring - much like those fence sitters like myself.
The thing that stuck out for me last night was the team spirit that the old English managers i.e. Pulis and Warnock seem to get out of their respective teams. This seems to be worryingly missing from our squad.
One of Gray's completed five passes in 66 minutes was the kick off and another was when he miscontrolled the through ball from Garner and it went to Sarr.
Well it seems most are really unhappy with this performance. First up we changed the formation and it was a little better.There are very few teams in this division where we will need 3 centre backs.Indeed we can't actually afford to play with 3 because we need more bodies up top. Obviously we were unlucky losing 3 players to Covid and that undoubtedly meant changes to the game plan and the FL should really have allowed us an extra player because just one cannot replace King Ken. The midfield did ok but the wide players were disappointing.The knock on affect of 3 more players being out means we cannot drop/rest under performing ones(Hello Ismaila how are you today?) What to say about Gray.We are stuck with him and can only hope he improves.His instincts are pretty good because he often makes the right moves and takes up good positions it is just his ability cannot match that. Stick him up front with Perica or Deeney and see if that helps.Our options are limited because of poor recruitment and some bad luck but he has to improve soon or come January loan him out. Ivic has been dealt a **** hand and we all have to move on from this squad being the "best in the division" and that we should piss the league. Although he hasn't done everything right we are in a decent position and we all know 2 or 3 of the returning players will actually thrive in this division.That would certainly make the difference between a draw and 3 points. I still have belief that Ivic is the right man but he needs help with injuries/covid and some better recruitment.A left back and forward are needed and it's a shame we sold LS and PE as they could have answered all our questions.
I'd already said in my post that the front 3 were ineffective last night. As Gray was part of that front 3 then yes he was ineffective.
That was not an enjoyable dissection but almost certainly the truth of the matter. My only addition is that I hope the blank piece of paper isn't brought by Andre as I suspect it would be a cabbage,given his ineptitude! That was scant consolation then and time has done little to improve it!
I thought we did better in the second half last night than we were in the second half against QPR, all that was lacking was a decent final ball and a bit of luck, I especially noticed in the final few minutes the way the players were scampering back to defend when BC were on the attack! you could say that's what they are meant to do, but they didn't cave in and give up!
Another thing worth saying about the performance last night was how much we suffered by having no viable midfielders to bring on. You could see our CMs were shattered, and completely lost their shape and discipline, but due to Covid we had no fresh legs to bring on. I see us really suffering for the next 3 games.
I've seen plenty of players 'play themselves in' in my time watching football following those type of injuries. Depends on the nature of the hamstring injury as I previously said. Gray and Ivic will be having those conversations. He had missed 10 or so games with that injury. I would be prepared to give any player some reasonable time to get up to speed foll0wing that type of injury whoever they are. Whether Ivic will remains to be seen as he needs his best setup to get him enough points for promotion so its up to him. Deeney played with a bandaged leg part of last season if you remember so players not fully fit have played for us. In my post match feedback I have said that the front 3 were ineffective last night, and have stated a reason as to why that may have been the case in respect of Gray in response to some posts singling him out.
Sometimes I think I watch a different game to other people. I thought we played well and I didn't think it was particularly boring either. Should have been at least 1-0 up at HT. When people say we only had one shot on target, they fail to mention that Catchart somehow missed from a yard out and Sarr probably should have scored. We did have a 15-20 minute spell in the second half where we were very poor and almost conceded, but on balance I thought we were clearly the better team. Bristol's tactics were strange - played for a 0-0 at home. I thought if we had Sema and Capoue in that game we'd have probably won. For me the negatives are the unbalanced squad we have is causing us issues - Kiko kept slowing things down because he'd check back onto his right foot. The lack of midfield options on the bench was clearly an issue too. Gray is not going to work in Ivic's system. It relies on the striker to be involved in the build up. He can't do that. Not being able to get him and Deeney off the books has hampered us massively I think.
Doubt if my views are that different from most people. Yesterday was disappointing , first half we absolutely dominated , but did nothing with it, we spend the whole time trying to run in the box but the opposition stick 8 men in there so the attack fizzles out, plus we often seem to get 1/2 way up the pitch and then go back into our own half. 2nd half we lose composure so they come at us, which then means we have more space and create more chances but again can’t get the ball in the back of the net, so we either dominate and do sod all or fall apart and create more chances. Problem is we are too predictable, the opposition know we are going to run it into the box, so they just fill the box with players, we need to be taking shots from outside and then chasing the rebound. Not sure the playing wide works (but think we missed Sema yesterday) as we never have anybody to get on the end of it. Gray is a spent force , Denney looked more dangerous but needs to have players near him when he knocks it down if everybody is out wide there is nobody to pick it up. We either need to give Deeney a go from the start or just accept that both Deeney and Gray have had it. Although they made repeated mistakes I think that Quina , Ngakia did well at least they were going for it. Challobah ran around a lot and gave his best, but just isn’t up to it, we need Hughes back. Sarr and Pedro both have skill but lack confidence, Kiko would be fine if somebody would get on the end of his balls. Foster rock solid, rest of defence ok. still 2 days till next game
Interesting post and I'm with you for much of it. I watched the Sky coverage and I thought the commentators were very harsh on Watford and the game in general, focusing on the scoreline rather than the play. I get the impression that the TV pundits are expecting much more from Watford and are confused as to why they're not getting it. As for the Watford performance, I too thought they played well and with more speed and purpose, especially in the first half, but the frustration was in the huge difference between the amount of possession they enjoyed and the minimal number of shots at goal. It's no good being "clearly the better team" and deserving to be "at least 1-0 up at HT" but but having hardly any goal attempts.
