Brexit negotiations.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ghost of Barry Endean, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    Sorry honest but I just laugh when I read "We are leaving, just move on" ...

    Once the human rights of citizens are firmly protected your Tory bigwigs will soon lose interest
     
  2. Moose

    Moose First Team

    Just how many people have you managed to have long-term disputes with in this section ZZ?

    And yet it's you a boohooing on the other thread.

    Do you think it helps to set up an endless sequence of illogical defamatory arguments, like criticise the Government over Brexit and you are anti the UK? Debate the reasons for terrorism = sympathiser, criticise Police tactics = anti police etc. Etc.
     
  3. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Well, disputing things with each other on a Forum is hardly a crime, is it? Extreme (in either direction), far-lefties, socialists, liberalists and do-gooders, are obviously not going to like what I say, and vice-versa.

    I've got no issue with long term "disputes" with political opponents on here. Not one tiny bit. But have you ever known me to enter a thread with a "**** off you ****" (or something similar to avoid the swear filter), to someone that posts an opposite opinion to my own, even if they do it consistently?

    You are the one that tells us that you only mix with like-minded people in your normal life. You even fall out with others who like my posts, but rarely post themselves! You obviously can't handle others that disagree with you. How do you cope at work?

    I can handle disputes, arguments, disagreements, discussions, chats, all the way through the forum spectrum, but when it gets to the stage where an innocent post is consistently met with "**** off" before any attempt to discuss what I have actually posted, it just becomes less enjoyable, and starts to seem like someone just wants to shut me up as they don't like my opinions being so posted. A form of censorship that I am sure Momentum would be proud of.

    As for our "dispute", I have said my piece about what I think is a sinister drift from the far left and so have you. If others have bothered to read it, then they will be forming their own opinions on whether I am out of order or not.

    What they probably don't want is you following me across other threads and trying to start it all up again.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  4. Moose

    Moose First Team

    I said 'fark'. Grow up.

    Staggering, given the lengths you go to wind people, up that you blub over a non-swear word. Your posts are rarely 'innocent' either. They are carefully constructed straw men trying to trap the unwary into revealing some opinion you can dismiss as giving succour to terrorists or disloyal to the UK.

    ZZ, your rate of falling out with people is staggering. Obdurate is the word that comes to mind. But that's fine, that's you. We can choose to engage with you or not. But this holier than thou tack is a bit nuts.
     
  5. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    :DIf you like.
     
  6. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    ZZ doesn't construct anything, he's an open book .... and quite frankly there's nothing wrong with that, his position is far more honourable than those of his fellow Tories that have hoodwinked the people for their own ends.
     
    Caeser Cigar and zztop like this.
  7. Moose

    Moose First Team

    Of course, he's entitled to his (wrong on most things) position on life. I wouldn't even claim he never makes a valid point.

    However, he's not entitled to claim those who disagree with him are terrorist sympathisers or anti GB simply because they disagree with him, a tactic which bedevils many a thread. He makes things very personal and then gets upset in return,
     
  8. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    To be fair to ZZ, the "you're unpatriotic if you don't agree with the Government on Brexit" claim is down to the Government. See Andrea Leadsom recently.

    It's profoundly irritating, I was under the impression we lived in a democracy, and that the primary hallmark of a democracy was its tolerance of dissenting voices. I can take losing in the referendum but I fail to see why Remainers have thereby forfeited the right to express any view whatsoever on the next steps. Hopefully the GE result will have got that message across to "tearful" Mrs. May.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
    sydney_horn likes this.
  9. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    One thing that doesn't get mentioned is that with so many UK operators setting up around the continent bringing extra tax to the respective countries it going to be tough to persuade their governments to let us back in. As I see it we're going to get shafted either way (but obviously much worse if we're out) ... Thanks for that Cameron you Klutz!
     
  10. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

  11. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    Exactly. Surely the most unpatriotic action would be to take the country in a direction that you believe to be wrong and harmful.

    Many of our political leaders seem quite happy to do just that.

    There are plenty of choices within the Brexit sphere. I want to hear our politicians arguing for them. Actually that is what we should have been doing for the last year. Then we might have had a consensus that the country could get behind instead of the shambles we currently have thanks to the "any descent makes you a traitor" mantra.
     
    Keighley likes this.
  12. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    There really isn't plenty of choices within the Brexit sphere and nobody should kid themselves that any of them are better, Norway for example are basically full members without a veto and with restrictions on what they can and can't compete in e.g. finance. They also receive limited if any investment on infrastructure and no rebate. Like us they are not part of Schengen but we had that already. Furthermore they are oil rich and all they negotiated was upon joining but we are leaving without a pot to piss in and it's starting to look like the EU will actually benefit from it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017 at 12:30 PM
  13. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    Personally I think It's a typical opinion piece. Nothing new is raised. They seem to be picking selective stats to prove their agenda as is the case with most publications on both sides of the discussion

    Particularly unintelligent reporting. Of course we're worse off than before the crash. We've not recovered or paid the debt of yet. We are better off than just after the crash. Whether we are in a better or worse position than we would have been if the management of the country was different who knows? But should have been the statistic quoted.

    Nothing about us being a top growth performer previously. Could we have had our growth, the others are now catching up. Showing we came out of the crash quicker and hence suffered the consequences for a shorter time? The best thing about this quote is it's the Observer quoting the Guardian's article as fact.
    That's like Anheuser -Busch referring to a Stella Artois advert in proving that the lager relay is reassuringly expensive and not actually tasteless pee from Luton.

    A healthy pinch of salt is required when reading anything from each side. Personally I wouldn't put a penny in the coffers of any newspaper. They all report what sells paper rather than have the journalistic integrity of some 10 or 20 years ago.
     
  14. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    Let me guess? ... We had an election coming ... Skewed figures and unfortunately that's about the size of it, we allow politics to override economics.

    It's all downhill from here methinks.
     
  15. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    As the piece is actually entitled "The Observer view on how the tide is turning against deceitful and incompetent hard Brexiter" and has the byline "Observer editorial", I think gives the game away that it's an opinion piece.

    I do find it a bit odd that your critique of the piece concerns two of their economics/finance "calims" (just two, I notice that you didn't mention the comments from the BDI and BDA concerning integrity of the single market and our future access to it*) not the assertions about the Breixteers' technique/strategy for negotiating in a thread entitled "Brexit negotiations".

    You also seem to be unaware that the Observer is "owned" by the Guardian and it shares their website and the reason that I put owned in inverted commas is that both are owned by the Scott Trust and are in a unique position in British print media in that because of this trust funding them they don't "need" to sell papers to function.

    *Incidently this is yet another claim from the Breixteers' campaign that suddenly shown to be cobblers - it does appear that the German auto industry doesn't need us more than we need them...
     
  16. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    I believe there were. Perhaps not so much now though. If the government had, from day one, looked to build a consensus and a proper plan for the Brexit negotiations then we would be in a much better position now. Compared to the EU, who have a published and agreed approach to Brexit we look like a bunch of amateurs. They had to get 27 countries to agree FFS.

    The Government have let dogma lead the way and, as discussed, any dissent is slapped down as 'unpatriotic'. The most obvious example is the ECJ. The insistence that it has nothing to do with any process or regulation that the UK is part of is just plain stupid and has led to implications such as those around Euratom that were entirely predictable but seem to have come as a shock to the Government.

    Also the idea of a transitional period is only now being discussed. It was being discussed on this board months ago and I, amongst others, said that this should be the Government's priority. Over a year since the election it is only now that the Government are discussing it as though it is a new idea. And there are still some on the extreme Brexit side who don't want any transitional period as it would mean continued contributions and the involvement of the ECJ.

    I could go on. We still have several months of negotiations and what we want and what compromises we are willing to make are still totally unknown. And they are not unknown because of some secret plan that the Government has but doesn't want made public. They are unknown because our split Government have still not got a plan that is supported by their own party let alone the rest of the country.

    No wonder the EU negotiators are losing their patience.
     
  17. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    Good piece

    Let me be the first to comment that a transitional deal would probably push the cliff edge into the territory of the next (assuming no more snap elections) government which naturally is likely to be a Labour or Labour led one ... Very clever.
     
  18. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    Er. What?

    Original comment was, "this is a thought provoking peice."
    My response "it's just an opinion piece". in other words I disagree it's worth considering as thought provoking. That's a personal opinion. That's what the forums are for expressing. I then went on to outline why I did not think it was worth considering.

    I'm criticised for picking out convenient facts, but that is exactly what the piece does. I only read the first two links, didn't have time to research every link as the person I was waiting on hold for on the phone answered. The first two links backed up my first opinion. If the following facts were so bloody important and interesting why were they hidden after the first two which are highly subjective?

    Of course I'm aware that the Observer is owned by the guardian. That's why I referenced Stella, as owned by Anheuser -Busch so not quite sure why the criticism there either.

    Again not sure of your last bit written small is referring to at all. probably their third link which I didn't follow.

    You'd made your mind up about what I'd written without actually reading it or understanding it and your prejudices had brought an incorrect (in my opinion) conclusion which you then represented as fact. But then that's to be expected given teh way this section has turned recently with people taking side swipes at each other.
     
  19. Ghost of Barry Endean

    Ghost of Barry Endean Squad Player

    The fact that 'no one wants it' (the top job) should make it glaringly obvious to even the most one-eyed brexiteer is that it is going to be disastrous - and they all know it. Some of them (Gove, Mogg) don't actually care that it is going to be disastrous as long as it gives them their ideological goals, but would rather keep their powder dry until somebody else has been blamed.
     
  20. Ghost of Barry Endean

    Ghost of Barry Endean Squad Player

    You are getting very sensitive Meister. Is it because the political sands have shifted, and are shifting further?
     
  21. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    No as I've stated on many threads in here I'm not happy with the government and the way things are being handled. I'm going with that shift, not against it.

    I'm close to closing the section becasue I'm fed up of the ******** and aggressive stuff being posted and the time I'm having to spend administer it.
    I set the section up because I enjoy debating. All I see to be doing now is defending attacks simply because other people don't share my position.

    So I'm cracking down and handing out warnings. I'm not going to let anyone be bullied out of a section simply because there is a differing point of view.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017 at 4:13 PM
  22. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    The Tories are really up the creek without a paddle if either of those two get anywhere near the leadership. How much more out of touch with the public could a politician be?
     
    Godfather likes this.
  23. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    I don't think the current hierarchy are particularly in touch either. At least Gove or Mogg seem to have an idea or plan (regardless of whether it's any good or not). Faffing about doing nothing but U-turns isn't going to help anyone other than the DUP.

    Don't know what the answer is really. Actually don't think there is one.
     
  24. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    There was an article in the Times the weekend before last which suggested that the Tories might 'skip a generation' in choosing the next leader, who would be in their 30s. I can't say I recognised any names, but it seems plausible and might be their best bet to keep in touch. But whether that is a feasible option before the next election is a moot point.

    As I've said on these pages before, those currently in high-level positions are a pretty uninspiring lot.
     
    Meister likes this.
  25. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    Agreed.
    I see that they're softening up Mogg and raising his profile quite a bit. He was enertaining on HIGNFY the other week and seemed to get a decent reception. Was fairly straight and to the point.

    I think Boris has burned his bridges, so we are indeed looking at the next generation now.
     
  26. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    Mogg would lose many more Tory votes than he'd win .... bring it on!
     
  27. Meister

    Meister Meister Staff Member

    At this point in proceedings have they got any votes left? They haven;t got mine anymore.
     
  28. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Mogg can be entertaining, yes; so can Boris (not so sure about Gove). They're hardly men of the people, though. They just seem so remote from most people's education, experiences, daily lives etc etc in a way that Thatcher and Major did not. This didn't matter 50 years or so ago but I'm pretty sure it does now.
     
  29. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It is not an easy balance for a politician to get right when absolutely everything is recorded, and replayed over and over again. Although, again, I am not excusing that Tory MP with the racist word, but one of the main criticisms of her was that, as an MP used to public speaking, etc etc, she should not have made the mistake she did - and should have been sacked. Maybe she should have had everything vetted and rehearsed everything through many times before speaking. A bit extreme, but you know what I am saying.

    We seem to want our politicians to never make a mistake, such as have perfect marriages, no swearing, being politically correct, and answer questions that are DELIBERATELY designed to trip them up, whilst expecting them to be "normal" at the same time.

    Those two demands are difficult to achieve, and even I, or other superhumans would struggle.:D
     
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  30. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    You don't get it ... it's a secret rebellion on brexit. The bigger fools they make of themselves the more likely the people will see they've been had.
     
  31. @julesmckenzie

    @julesmckenzie Academy Graduate

    You may be right. Brexit negotiating strategy has become more of a Brexactly-the-same but with less civil liberties for the general public.
     
  32. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    In what way?

    Fewer, incidentally. :D
     
  33. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    I don't think that's too hard to imagine ... Just a few little minor things like attacking the minimum wage, weaker unions, reduced tax credits and benefits, higher NHS fees, stronger anti protest laws and a curbing of free speech. But don't worry they'll replace any Polish builders and carers with Filipinos and Bangladeshis, they'll be even cheaper so it will save big bosses lots more dosh to spend on yachts and Caribbean cruises.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 PM
    sydney_horn likes this.
  34. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Many of those things have nowt to do with the EU, though.
     
  35. @julesmckenzie

    @julesmckenzie Academy Graduate

    IMO, the Psyops being employed to subjugate and indoctrinate Joe Public in order to promote and prescribe "favourable" law making is indeed a method of eroding civil liberties.

    Most of us are well aware that TV benefit demonising has been prevalent in the past few years and extremely politically biased toward a capitalist agenda, and so generalised that even working benefits are included in this doctrine.

    Now I am not saying that recent critical events have been "false flagged" or contrived but they have certainly been politicised in order to forward an agenda of subjugation through fear.

    Any opinion outside of the elite doctrine is given the label "fake news" and the freedom of thought and speech is being put under pressure with future restrictions planned on social media. Although still none planned for the written media despite how many inquiries and reports into its impartiality.

    And of course the advent of the SPAG police on football forums further proves my point. It gives me "fewer" confidence in me righting.
     

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