Beirut Explosion

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Moose, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Utter devastation in Beirut following the explosion yesterday. A quite shocking cataclysm that will take the Country years to get over. They are going to need the World's help as they struggle with this, Covid 19 and a wrecked economy. We should help.

    It seems as if the explosion was of a huge store of Ammonium Nitrate in the Port area. It's going to seem utterly inexplicable how it was allowed to be stored there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...irut-lebanon-shatters-windows-rocks-buildings
     
  2. scummybear

    scummybear Reservist

    The footage of the explosion is horrendous, you can see the shockwave systematically ripping off rooftops like a Spielberg disaster movie. I've never seen anything quite like it. Unfortunately the death toll is still rising rapidly, and not expected to stop any time soon - although a very small positive is that being on a dock at least means half of the blast radius is the sea, if it was in the centre of the city the death toll would be doubled.

    Not only was it a store of Ammonium Nitrate, but it'd been there for 6 years! What were they waiting for? At the very least, if you can't find a way to dispose of it, move it away from a built-up area! I suspect there's going to be severe repercussions for somebody.
     
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  3. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    It looks like a scene from an apocalyptic film and it has devastated large parts of the port which the country relies on. All in the midst of a famine.
     
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  4. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member


    Not the first time a massive explosion has occurred in a built up area and probably won't be the last. The Halifax explosion in 1917 was down to carelessness as well.


    Ammonium nitrate was also involved in the SS Grandcamp blowing up in the US in the forties with massive casualties and closer to home there was the Buncefield explosion with amazingly no one killed.
     
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  5. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    The footage is extraordinary. It's reminiscent to first seeing 9/11 for outright shock.
     
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  6. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    I just thought I would mention although it is a little less unrelated that the BBC are broadcasting their Hiroshima docudrama tonight as well. In conjunction with the release of Hideo Sekigawa's Hiroshima of 1953 released in high definition for the first time by Arrow Films it's a timely reminder that the minute clock is edging closer to midnight once again with several of the nutjobs we have in power at the moment. Not just Trump or Putin but the new imperialists Xinping and others in Iran and North Korea.

    Threads, The Day After and The War Game should be watched by everyone who still thinks beating the chest is a great idea. And this too:

     
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  7. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    We also had the good fortune of Buncefield going off at night otherwise it could again have been worse. Both this tragedy and Buncefield are good comebacks to anyone desperate to moan about ‘elf n’stacey’. As nitpicking as it sometimes seems it’s about preventing what should be obvious, but isn’t always.
     
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  8. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Indeed. Unfortunately action is often only taken after disasters happen rather than before. The number of times salient advice about potential design flaws, incorrect procedures, poor material construction has been ignored is mind boggling. Those higher up never want to look bad or be shown up by someone else until after something goes wrong.

    One of the most pertinent examples that sticks in my mind is the Morton-Thiokol engineer Roger Boisjoly whose advice was ignored by senior managers not only at MT but by NASA regarding the performance of the O-rings at low temperatures in the Challenger disaster. He was bullied and ostracized afterwards. While those at MT and NASA involved in the erroneous decision were promoted. Nothing surprises me there.
     
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  9. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Good words.
    3551001B-6294-47DF-8024-39A683D3095B.jpeg
     
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  10. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Terrible footage, and too easy to wonder at the explosion without considering the individuals caught up in it. Families just snuffed out in an instant.
     
  11. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    The Governor of Beirut estimates 300k homeless. It’s believable from the footage, where street upon street, block upon block has all windows, doors and most roofs blown out.
     
  12. StuBoy

    StuBoy Forum Cad and Bounder

  13. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    The footage of the explosion is terrifying. Imagine witnessing that in person...

    Horrible thing to happen and I hope Lebanon gets the support it will need to get past this. It's easy to armchair manage the storage of a dangerous explosive material, but that's not the fault of those who will be impacted by the explosion most and shouldn't be the focus.
     
  14. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Shocking and so so terrible. Prayers and love to all have been lost, and I hope all affected will find faith again to carry on. Storing such explosive material in such a away is never going to end well. Let's hope this is a wake up call to how such materials are handled and stored in the future. It's a terrible shame so many people have paid the ultimate price for it.
     
  15. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes IMO. The reasons for dropping the bombs do not stand up to much scrutiny. The fire bombing of Tokyo also.The Soviets attacking Japan after their surrender was a war crime too. The moral of the story ? Don't lose a war unless you want to be seen as a war criminal
     
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  16. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Can you back that statement up because it’s easy to say 75 years after the event and it’s simply not true.
    Awful damage, death, horrible injuries and radiation after effects caused by those bombs and looked at in isolation, morally reprehensible.

    But the Japanese believed that surrender was for cowards and we saw how they treated those Allied ‘cowards’ who surrendered didn’t we?
    We saw what the Japanese did to civilians in China, Korea etc didn’t we?
    We saw the human experimentation the Japanese were doing in places like Unit 731 didn’t we?

    Hirohito was considered a God. The citizens were preparing for an American invasion of their mainland and were indoctrinated to fight to the death.
    The huge American casualties and extended time frames taking small islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa (26000 and 62000) would have been nothing compared to invading the Japanese mainland.

    A cold reality is the dropping of those bombs ended WW2 and prevented much loss of life.
    And awful as they were, the realisation of their effects by both sides has probably resulted in the MAD doctrine (Mutually Assured Destruction) actually ‘working’.

    Those 2 atomic bombs in all probability prevented a Third World War using much more powerful weapons that would have laid waste to huge parts of the ‘civilised’ world and killed millions.
     
  17. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    To my shame, I hadn't realised the extent of the fire bombing of Tokyo until I went there for work in 1995 and saw that vast areas of the city were similar low-rise buildings built during the 1960s to replace the devastation.
     
  18. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Always dubious to lump a whole nation of people together: "The Japanese" did such and such. Deeds are always done by individuals.
    Whether or not Japan would have surrendered anyway, my view is that those in power in the US saw an opportunity to test their new weapon, the effect of which they could only theorise about, in a real situation.
     
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  19. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    You are correct that you certainly cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

    However SAhorn is certainly not wrong, that the japanese as a nation committed horrendous war crimes. It is always easy to say that individuals committed the crime, and that they are the guilty ones however you would incorrectly absolve a lot of people of guilt by doing this. I'm not going to write a massive essay on the rise of japanese imperialism but it is certainly worth looking into if you are interested. The country as a whole supported the war on a near fanatical basis, even more so than occured in Nazi Germany. Japanese children were taught that they were superior to other races, and you can see the japanese attitude to the outside world through propaganda at the time.

    Estimates vary but the figure is generally accepted as lying between 3,000,000 and 14,000,000 people were killed as a result of japanese war crimes. Those numbers were not reached by a group of mad individuals, they were committed by normal everyday people like you and me under the thrall of an imperialistic and warlike culture.

    There has been a lot of debate over the use of the atomic bomb, and I do believe that the Americans probably did want to flex the power at their disposal. At the time it made sense to show the Russians who were clearly going to be the next big threat in the American's eyes. However the japanese were not going to surrender without the use of extreme measures. In the long term the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, though appalling and quite possibly a war crime in its own right, is probably justified in saving more lives than it snuffed out.
     
  20. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    There is a saying about the victors in any conflict writing the history.
     
  21. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    The problem was the insistence of the military to carry on fighting to the last man. They did not see themselves as defeated. The mass suicides not just of soldiers in mass charges but of civilians on Okinawa and the mounting casualties among Allied troops led to the decision to use Fat Man and Little Boy regrettable as it is. The firebombing of every Japanese city as most were of wooden construction claimed many more lives including as seen in Germany horrific firestorms. Hamburg alone during Operation Gomorrah suffered some nearly sixty thousand deaths. People literally bursting into flame due to the surrounding air temperature and melting.

    As for war crimes. Unlike Germany many Japanese did get off very lightly for what happened in China and other occupied places to both military and civilian personnel including summary executions, torture, rape and general brutality. And among many the mindset still is that Japan is not to blame for what happened. Unfortunately the decision to prevent Communism gaining a foothold in Japan and the desire to accumulate the knowledge of the data acquired by Unit 731 regarding biological weapons was deemed more important than meting out justice.

    You are right the history for many years was written by the victors. One side pure, good and noble. The other the very epitome of evil. Nonetheless the Allies did commit atrocities including rapes particularly by the Red Army most notably recorded by Solzhenitsyn, summary executions including mistaken identity such as Hungarian soldiers looking after Dachau I think who were assumed to be SS troops and POWs if you have seen Band of Brothers as an example. Or the return of former Axis soldiers to the Soviets as in the Bleiburg repatriations. Not to mention all the ethnic cleansing that went on. Ukrainians murdering Poles, Serbs being murdered by Croats, the Jewish holocaust in the Balkans committed by the Muslim SS Handschar and the reprisals against Germans in Poland and Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Though that documentary The Savage Peace carefully omits the actions of Allied soldiery on the Western front. Even the C-in-C Eisenhower stated or had a part in making sure POWs were left exposed and vulnerable to disease with many dying.


    It's not a particularly palatable thought. We are the moral victors. The ones doing right. Was it really necessary to bomb Dresden for example when intelligence knew where the railtracks running to the extermination camps were but left untouched ? But history is nuanced, full of different shades of grey. Undoubtedly some that died deserved it but many others did not. The process of justice was badly applied or not used at all. It's a thought troubling even now and should merely reinforce that we should all try and get on together to avoid such horrors again. Sadly the posturing of ideologies means that we are still perilously close to wiping ourselves out this time permanently.
     
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  22. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Have you read "Other losses" by James Bacques ?
    It is about the treatment of German POWs after the end of the war. It's a tough read and a part of history not taught in schools
     
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  23. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    I've not read that particular book but I do have a large part of my library at home dedicated to history from the distant past to the present and some of the books cover the year 1945 and war on the Eastern Front. These detail the crimes committed on both sides. The Wehrmacht pretended that it did not know but it was a collaborator in many crimes. Those officers usually of the Prussian tradition and of a religious background who saw with horror what happened in Poland and onwards formed the nucleus of the German resistance later on.

    The treatment of German civilians in many cases was abominable. Incidents like the sinking of the Wilhem Gustloff for example are not known about. The treatment of German POWs in Soviet Russia where most died as well. This is not to excuse anything given the way Soviet POWs were treated and civilians used as slave labour even to the extent of murdering young boy scouts and girl guides as possible future resistance members as in Poland. It's a rather sad tale of the cruelty which seemingly civilized people can commit given the chance.

    If anyone can they should also read A Plague Upon Humanity by Daniel Barenblatt detailing the biological weapons programme conducted by Unit 731. Even today some eighty years on many still find it hard to forgive and forget. We must not forget and in some cases certainly not forgive either although some managed to find the courage if you want to call it that as with Louis Zamparini or if you watch The Railway Man. The problem is history is poorly taught in schools among other subjects. Most people do not even have a clue about the most basic events in world let alone British history to give themselves perspective and the unfortunate conclusion that history is still cyclical. Going into the minutiae of conflicts such as World War 2 is beyond most.

    Over recent years as time passes there has been a slew of new books and a re-evaluation of what happened and an attempt for a more balanced portrayal of events which is reflected in the more popular media form of the film particularly from a German and until recently Russian perspective. Come And See should be required watching in schools as an approximation of the horror of war or as close as one as film can depict because the vast majority never come close to depicting it.
     
  24. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    "Wall Street and the rise of Hitler" is another book which focuses on American
    big business bankrolling the German war effort. Standard Oil Ford and GM
    supplying the German Army . Prescott Bush grandfather to Dubya involved too
    Hmmm!
     
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  25. Bonkingbob

    Bonkingbob First Year Pro

    For anybody inteested in depictions of the human cost of war, 'Grave of the Fireflies' from Studio Ghibli is worth a watch if you haven't seen it. There's a complete absence of any glory, victory, good vs evil etc. The war is nothing more than a looming presence that forms a backdrop to the human experience that is portrayed.

    It's certainly not cheerful but it resonated with me.
     
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  26. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Good post.

    I saw a very good film about the Ukrainian - Polish ethnic cleansing in Volhynia - Hatred, murder of the innocent. Awful stuff.
    And Katyn, an excellent Polish film about how Stalin wanted to subject the free thinking Poles to socialism and thought a good way was to literally blow the brains out of 22,000 of their intelligentcia and dump their bodies in the forests.

    We in the west generally can’t imagine the scale of what happened in the east before, during and after the war years. And not just Hitlers final solution. Lots of little conflicts with old historic scores settled while the world was engulfed. What Stalin did to his own people is beyond belief for example.

    I think Dresden and Hamburg were not good decisions or the best use of Allied resources.

    Hitler thought he could undermine the morale of the British public by bombing British cities so they would put pressure on Churchill to negotiate for peace.
    It had the opposite effect.
    The Allies bombing German cities also didn’t affect German civilians morale and Dresden was close to a war crime imho.

    The individual against the state - there’s only one winner and that’s why keeping politicians in check and holding them to account is important - politics does matter!

    I’m just glad I was born British and not born a German or Japanese in the 1920’s being forced to serve in the German or Japanese armed forces at that time.

    A bit off the topic of the Beirut explosion, but interesting...
     
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  27. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Not to mention the recruitment of Americans of German descent or act as spies. There was even an American Nazi movement the Bund led by Fritz Kuhn that even held a large rally at MSG that initially prospered until the federal government clamped down on it's activities.
     
  28. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Katyn directed by the great Andrzej Wajda. I think that was more of an attempt to eliminate all potential resistance in the old Polish army ranks. The Nazi's had their groups in Operation Aktion scouring the cities for the intelligentsia and any group or body that could be a focus for resistance. That included as I mentioned boy scouts and girl guides being shot. In the wake of the uprising in 1944 there were some even more appalling atrocities such as those led by Oskar Dirlwanger. Stalin left those in the uprising in limbo deliberately as did Polish communists. Then again there were quite a few Poles also involved in antisemitic activities as well as those helping Jews to hide.

    Many Poles even today have not forgiven what the Germans and Soviets did. That includes us as some see GB and France forsaking them in their hour of need and also forgetting the contribution of the free Poles in the air force and FPA.
     
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  29. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    War.

    All about power, subjugation and control over peoples and resources.

    Of course the British are absolved of all the negatives of this with our Empire building as we are the good guys.! :)

    And of course we did bring roads, railways, legal, educational and administrative systems and modern utilities to the people’s we invaded.
    I just hope they are grateful :D ;)
     
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  30. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Tis a good point although the same could be said about the Romans

    Recently I read a book about Rourkes Drift, Isambalada,forgive my spelling , and whilst it has
    to be said what was whitey doing in Africa be it British
    or Dutch? , the African tribes were happy to slaughter and
    subjugate eachother well before anyone else turned up .
     
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  31. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Indeed!
    What did the Romans do for us etc ..

    The history of South Africa is fascinating.
    Both the diaspora of black peoples from central Africa to Southern Africa and whites moving north from the Cape...
    Both overwhelmed the actual indigenous people of Southern Africa, the San, Khoi and bushmen.
    There are 11 official languages in SA and the country is very tribal.
    The Zulu are the most populous group but only 18% of the total I believe.

    In the bad old days of apartheid many people in the UK (in my experience) thought it was a white-Black thing but it has always been a complex mishmash of rivalries with violence against rival tribal members.
    Nelson Mandela was Xhosa for example.

    I spent an absolutely fascinating weekend of ‘story telling’ and site seeing at Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift.
    The Brits had no right to invade Zululand, a sovereign territory. The Zulus never wanted a war.
    We were a small tourist group and the nighttime storytelling around the camp fire and site exploration was given from the perspective of a 16 yr old British drummer boy and a Zulu impi. They had us in tears the massacre of both.

    Of course it led to the Boys Own heroic defence of Rorkes Drift (a field clinic/hospital), and lots of VC’s by Welsh engineers etc - and Michael Caine’s career ..
    Zulu king Cetshwayo had forbidden the invasion of his Impi into Natal but their success at Isandlwana brought indiscipline...

    Another unnecessary and bloody war from our Imperialist past..
     

    Attached Files:

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  32. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Same with the Balkans in the 90s. No one won the war so it's just a contradictory mess as far as history and the locals are concerned. Most wars are the same but a clear victor gives a clear narrative.
     
  33. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    As an aside I read about the Zulus using the discarded soda bottles from the British as "arrow heads " for their spears . Hoist by their own petard springs to mind !!
     
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  34. The Zulus under Shaka had themselves built their kingdom through war and invading other tribal areas, I think it's more a case of dog eat dog eat dog, neither side had any right to a moral high ground
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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