You are right - on Monday night the likes of Micah Richards and Chris Sutton basically said players have the power and can demand what they like and seemed to happily admit groups of players are allowed to question the manager by going to the board and asking questions. I remember when Capello was manager he banned ketchup and experienced top players like Rio Ferdinand came out and starting complaining about it. This is someone who performed under Sir Alex Ferguson and I bet he wasn't questioned. Having said that Ivic did seem to have a bit of a sour, miserable looking personality but then he probably knew results and performances weren't good. TBF I quite like Foster's videos - he does at least seem honest if we are playing poorly.
We have absolutely no insight on how much influence Troy has inside the club. We don’t see him every day in training. We don’t see if he glues the squad together, or if he turns them against the manager. But we do know that Troy hasn’t been much worse than our other strikers this year (though I’d prefer Perica to play). We also know that Ivic was rubbish and uninspiring. So whatever happened, I am glad he’s gone. My personal view is that Troy feeds back on the morale of the team to the bosses and they act on that. I also think that he probably glues together a rudderless group lacking leaders and uninspired by poor management choices. Whilst he has no filter, past of the annoyance toward him is probably shooting the messenger somewhat. The greatest failure over the past few years however has been the inability to recruit players who have a bit of bravery and can grab a game by the scruff of the neck.
This isn't true at all - we can interpret and extrapolate from many things, including the frequency of his playing time and the things that both teammates and former players say on the subject. It's very generous to give Troy the benefit of saying that he hasn't been much worse than our other strikers, when he's been the key reason other strikers haven't been given much of a chance to play and therefore demonstrate whether they are better or worse than him; Welbeck being the most notable of those, and one who Troy most certainly is worse than. I'm not sure what he's done to deserve that generosity in recent times. Even if what you suspect is true, and any leadership we have comes from him, that does not reflect on him in the positive light you think it does when you consider the mental weakness and lack of direction of our dressing room; something that's backed up by statements from players who have experienced it. On top of that, he's been here ten years, captain for more than half of that; if the squad is rudderless, he has to bear a degree of responsibility for that, and the only contribution towards that that we ever see on the pitch is him yelling at teammates, throwing his hands up in the air visibly and frustratedly and blaming others for what are often his own failings as a player/striker/goalscorer.
We need a forward/striker. Troy can no longer score from open play. Perica can, Gray is also a terrible player but he gets into scoring opportunities. I would rather Gray have chances to miss than Deeney just not being there in the first place. Sooner or later Gray will end up scoring, even if he misses 10 first. Troy can hold the ball up well, but that means we need to play 4-4-2 which affects us negatively elsewhere on the pitch. Troy shouldn’t ever start if Perica and Gray are available, but he does and he will, which says everything we need to know.
Yes, we do need a striker - a goal scorer, not just another ‘forward’. But I don’t think there’s any reason why we can’t successfully play a 4-4-2 formation in this division. However, anyone still advocating Gray as a starting striker after all this time hasn’t been paying attention for the past four seasons.
Part of what makes Gray so bad is some of his horrific misses, like in the Brentford game where he somehow got it over the bar from about 2 metres out. But he does get into scoring positions. I’d rather persist with him, than have to play a 4-4-2 just to incorporate Deeney into the team, it’s not playing to strengths of other players in the team far far better than Troy. I would start Perica ahead of both anyway, but Troy should be the last name on the team sheet not the first.
At the end of the season, if Troy has got into double figures in the scoring charts and the club is promoted, it will viewed by those above, that he has done his job, and all of these indiscretions will be tolerated as has been the case in recent seasons. However, if promotion is not achieved, then I believe he will be toast.
A Sunday morning striker will get into decent positions . Pub team goalscorers with a shyte technique are not unusual as that part of the game is instinct . A team looking to get promoted from the Championship cannot afford a striker with a 1 in 10 conversion rate
Yes I agree. The forward line has not been updated for many years Last season for example , IMO, the most likely player to score was Delefeu. When your strikers are not the bookies favourite to score first then that is an issue that needs addressing
The thing is if Andre doesn't score what other value does he give the team ? Whereas Troy does get possession of the ball up top now and again . Perica ? Who knows ?. Haven't seen enough to make a judgement
Actually thought he was outstanding tonight. Can hear him constantly talking too, and didn't seem as moany as he can be.
The problem is neither of them can hit a barn door, Gray never has for WFC and Deeney just isn't sharp enough anymore, his legs are failing him fast.
Genuine question - in what way was he "outstanding"? That is extremely high praise and I have absolutely no idea what it is based on?
I'm sure you know, I've been hugely critical of Deeney in the past, and I think he's now holding the club back. But looking at his individual performance yesterday I honestly thought he was excellent. Held the ball up well, won more headers than usual, and brought others into play. He rarely gave the ball away when he got it, which was vital when we were hanging on a bit. Also gave us a breather by winning a couple of clever free kicks. I also thought his workrate was very good, and he often popped up in defensive roles, supporting the full backs. I don't think his '*********ry' should be undervalued either. Left a bit in on a couple of Norwich defenders, and it seemed to throw them off a little. Young Max Aarons, for example, didn't look up for the fight at all. The other young full back Sorenson got hooked shortly after a heavy challenge from Troy. Sometimes you need a bit of that. Shame he wasted his big chance with an awful finish.
Outstanding a stretch, he was more effective than he has been this season because he played in a two, neither of our strikers are lone strikers and have looked crap most the time they've been asked to play there. Put them together and they both have their best games of the season. Magic.
Thought Deeney was good rather than outstanding. Our strikers are the weakness of the team, but I’d still play Deeney as he is the best out of an ordinary set of strikers . But realistically if we want auto then we will need to find a better option in the window, which will be very tough - given the constraints around budget. I’d still expect us to make the playoffs with the current squad.
I went for the word 'outstanding' because I think he was the most effective striker on a pitch that contained a man with 10 goals this season.
I actually thought that gray had a good game outside of the penalty area but it seems that he cannot kick a ball cleanly. Deeney seems to be snatching at any chance he gets atm but is by far the best option we have upfront
I think just find a better striker, a loan, anything, and we’d still be better in a 4-3-3. Deeney wasn’t bad, but ultimately what does he do? Hold the ball up around the edge of the box and lay it off? Wouldn’t we be better off if we had a midfielder who could do that, rather than a failed striker doing it instead.
Not sure where this comes from? I've not seen anything that fills me with confidence that he will score more than about 6 goals all season. We do not have a goalscorer at the club. Gray can't kick a ball, Perica looks average at best. I would say Deeney is the best actual footballer but can't seem to keep up with play. Pedro is not a natural striker
That isn't actually true. I had been putting his respectable stats up in posts last season in his defence following unfair criticism.
What are his stats out of interest? Be intrigued to know his starts/goals ratio. The truth is he’s limited enough as a player and that’s been compounded by playing him in formations that haven’t suited him in the slightest. Still baffles me why any coach thought he would be useful as a lone striker.
17 goals in 103 apps. however a number of them are from coming off the bench The important stat is goals per minutes of which I am not privy I have no idea what Andre admirers see . I don't see a clinical finisher and running the channels is flannel. I can do that . Also getting in good positions is also flannel as this is bog standard basics for a striker. Moreover Andre has been shanking all of his career. This means that when he is attempting to put his laces through, his foot his not coming down straight but is coming down right to left hence the shank . So the question is what has he been doing to correct this given that he is 30 next birthday? The answer is either nothing or he is unable to correct this flaw. Anyone who believes that Andre will shoot us out of the Championship is misguided IMO
Other than Manat who exactly is an Andre Admirer? We have absolutely hideous strikers, there is no other way to describe it. Sure, Troy can hold the ball up, but how does that help us get actual GOALS? As I said previously, any conversation about Gray is based on a least worse basis, nobody actually rates him. My own personal opinion as I’ve stated many times is he is my preference simply because he actually ends up with chances to miss each game, sooner or later some will go in. Troy isn’t going to score by chesting the ball into the top corner from 20 yards is he? What exactly is your preference if you can’t countenance Gray as even being least worst?
I don't understand your point . We both seem to agree that our no 18 is not good enough If I had to select a front 2 from our squad it would be Troy and JP. This said it is obvious to all that our strike force needs an urgent upgrade and has done for a while
JP has got more goals than any of our forwards (from open play) as has Sarr, the fact that both of our wingers have more goals than the forwards they supply says everything about our strikers, they are all useless, Troy Included. JP wouldn’t necessarily be a bad shout, however I’ve always thought he looked a bit clueless when it came to making runs beyond the defence, in other words he’s not a proper striker unfortunately. But my main point was that I don’t think anyone actually rates Gray, it’s like asking whether you’d like Aids, Cancer or Ebola and then criticising the one you pick.
I remember seeing Gray score an absolutely stunning goal at Turf Moor two or three seasons ago. A cross from the right wing caught on the run and volleyed in from the edge of the area.
The trouble is V is that was three seasons ago. Time has eroded his confidence and his technical failings and anxiety are reducing the likelihood of him repeating that goal. He snatched at his two very good chances last night. The first he hit round the left ( IIRC) of the ball sending it wide of the near post when it would have been better to go back into the main part of the goal with a more solid contact. The second was just a slash and the second half chance he blamed Freddie for not putting it in front of him and Skipp managed to block the strike. I can't recall the last time I believed he would score when presented with a chance other than a two yard tap in.
Was mentioned on the Norwich commentary he's scored once in last 24, although 9 of those were appearances from the bench.
