In fairness, I think most of us would rather Deeney stay, than have another season of Gray and Success off the bench. Those two are the first that need to go out the door, before Deeney. I’m happy for Deeney to stay, fight for his place and prove a point, and maybe he will. At the very worst we have ST that can come on and help close a game out in Deeney. Would much rather see Deeney warming up to come on than Gray or Success.
I really do genuinely want to know the point that Troy needs to get to for our some of our fans to finally accept he is past it. The empirical evidence of the past couple of seasons should be more than enough, particularly the last one spent in a league of much lower standard to the premier league, but somehow that still isn’t enough. Will he need to be 40 years old? In a wheelchair? how many less goals will the benchmark below 1 goal from open play in the championship be to no longer be considered a viable option as an actual Premier League goal scorer? Or do some fans have such a desperation for Deeney to carry on playing (some sort of nostalgia complex perhaps) that they’d like to see the 433 that got us promoted abandoned in favour of ‘bang it up to Deeney’? I’m genuinely at a loss to understand it all. Everything ends, and there is nothing wrong with that, it also does not have to be ‘oh well I’d rather Troy than Andre’. He’s no longer anywhere near good enough, the abilities of other players are irrelevant.
Regarding Deeney, I would be interested to know how long he had been carrying minor injuries, how much they had been impacting him, and how much his surgery has improved things before definitively writing him off. For example, I (and many on here) had completely written off Chalobah...
I don't entirely disagree with that contention, for sure, but apart from anything else the dilemma laid out specifically in that tweet is that Deeney is apparently not prepared to 'be a bit part player', and so should we agree to his demands and keep him in his self-appointed instant starter role, or let him go. To respond with 'he'll be desperate to prove people wrong' is just such a laughable response, that flies in the face of all logic and any of the evidence that has been on display over the past two to four seasons.
I do see your point, but they are actually two entirely different scenarios - one of an extremely talented youth prospect who through a mixture of loan madness and crazy injury luck has never reached anywhere near his potential up to this point but who is still only 26, and the other a relatively very limited talent-wise player who did the absolute best he could and elevated himself impressively through his career, but has only ever (or at least for more than five years) been able to play in one specific style, has been very clearly on a downward slope for an absolute minimum of three years and is an ageing player in a totally different period of that career. Troy is about to turn 33, and is someone who has never managed to keep an entirely professional lifestyle or even the physical shape he should be required to operate effectively plus coming off the back of what are apparently two serious injuries in the past year. The signs are not good, even ignoring all those other aspects, for him to keep playing at any kind of level, as he travels deep into his 30s, as a starter.
It's utterly baffling - I honestly think it's emblematic of the wider trend in the country towards rejecting fact, information and evidence in favour of purely dreamlike, emotive 'thinking' - this desperate clinging to the relevance or effect of 'wanting to prove people wrong' or 'having a point to prove'. I suppose, maybe, if that is the prime driver that can utterly defy logic, experience and sporting fact, then they can cling to the hope that they can magically do anything they want in their lives and never have, if they just manage to want it enough?
On the subject of strikers; Here’s a list from the clubs we should be aiming to beat/pick up points against next season, with their top goal scorers this season and fees Villa - Watkins 13 goals cost £33mil (2020) Leeds - Bamford 14 goals cost £10mil (2018) Wolves - Neto 5 goals cost £20mil (2019) Palace - Zaha 10 goals cost £10-15mil (2013) Brighton - Maupay 8 goals cost £20mil (2019) Saints - Ings 10 goals cost £20mil (2018) Burnley - Wood 11 goals cost £15mil (2017) Newcastle - Wilson 10 goals £20mil (2020) We know that nothing is guaranteed when it comes to strikers, but gives a good gauge of what we need to be looking at. This is obviously very basic and we know that £20mil doesn’t mean goals.
On the other hand, we're not going to get rid of him if his ability and fitness etc are not tested post-op...
I’m not sure that makes a great deal of sense? I believe he has one year left on his contract? He can’t play before next season now, if we can’t get rid of him before next season, surely it would be completely illogical to play him in the Premier League and effectively completely sabotage our status in the league just with a view to being able to get rid of him? Using all evidence we’ve had available to us over the past few years, I’m inclined to think his injuries are far more reason he’ll decline even further, rather than a reason why he’ll suddenly have some sort of miracle renaissance and roll the years back 6/7 years ago. Better surely just to try and shift him, and if we can’t, only play him in absolute dire emergencies?
In his WD18 video he said he hadn't been injury-free since the Zola/Sannino season. He then goes on to say he's "only 33". Well... I think any player that has been carrying injuries which are getting increasingly more long-term and career-threatening should be calling it a day at 33.
It'll be interesting to see if he retains the captaincy. By right, it should be someone who is a regular starter, which I doubt Troy will be. It's not ideal having your club captain sitting in the stands
Unless he's been playing for 3 years with a wooden leg, and his previous leg has now grown back and is as strong as 28 year old troy's leg, I don't want to hear it.
I don't think any Watford fan would deny that he is past it, but a past it Deeney has more utility than a Success or a Gray if he can get fit. That's not to say I ever expect Deeney to be a regular starter for us, those days are long gone.
Some of those comments on chumlax’s post suggest otherwise, and that we still do have fans that believe he can still play a part. That aside I think we need to move away from the least worst thinking of Deeney, Gray and Success. That was fine during this season when that’s all we could do, try and go with the least worst. Deeney shouldn’t be retained simply because he is better (and that is highly subjective as a statement) than Gray and Success, none of them are anywhere near good enough, and if we end up with any of them even as back up then we’re in trouble. FWIW as bad as he is I think of the three Gray would be the best one to keep, he does actually get into scoring positions and score the odd goal, success never scores and Deeney never scores or never gets into scoring positions.
Isn’t this part of the problem though? We can accept that, but I don’t know if he can. I’m not sure too many would be unhappy if he was willing to slip gracefully into retirement with us, coming off the bench late in games and so on. That doesn’t seem to be the case though, and I think it’s not out of the question to think he might be a disruptive influence if the coach (whoever that is) sees his role as anything less than an automatic starter. Sure, it’s easy to play the happy cheerleader when injury leaves you with no other choice, but can his pride handle being fit and sitting on the bench, or adapting his way of playing to fit what’s best for the team? With that being the case, I’d rather an ineffective, but harmless Isaac Success, than an equally ineffective, potentially disruptive influence.
If we go through this season with Deeney, Gray and Success making 20 starts or more between them, then our club has failed. End of.
They have 29 starts between them this season - I guess you mean next season? I'd hope at least two have moved on before August (2021).
Yeah that's what I meant. This coming season. 29 starts between them and very little resulting contrbution at a starkly lower level. Cannot be having any of these 3 near the starting 11 next year. We've had enough time now to plan their exit. There's literally no excuse for them to continue to be part of our plans next term.
Deeney at least offers some game intelligence and can take a penalty. Also good when defending corners. Keep as 4th choice.
One leg of a 33 year-old, the other of a 28 year-old? That would be a serious case of muscle imbalance!
Yeah. Very. When does his contract run out? If 2022 then we need to get rid. If 2021 maybe offer him 1 year on significant wage reduction.
Standing still and pointing at other people isn't necessarily game intelligence. And Sarr and JP both scored their 2 penalties each this season, and plenty of other strikers out there are capable of doing something so unremarkable as score a penalty. Sheesh.
Exactly; we are at the rankest, basest level of token praise/grubbing around desperately for any possible credit to justify his presence when we've reached 'can take a free shot under no pressure with a run up to a stationary ball placed 12 yards from the goal-line with only the keeper to defend it'.
Indeed. Missing 1 in 5 penalties, but scoring and assisting a few goals from open play would more than make up for losing Troy's above average spot kick rate.
Our last penalty miss was actually Troy against Spurs I think? Since then if you count friendlies Perica, Gray, Pedro and Saar have all scored penalties. We’ll probably get about 6 penalties next season if we’re lucky, if we miss 2 of them we’ll benefit hugely from having a striker who can contribute a few other things across 38 games.
