Academy And Under-23s

Discussion in 'The Team Bus' started by wfc78, Aug 14, 2012.

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  1. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    A list you say @The Voice of Reason ? No problem.
    The positions aren't 100% accurate and somewhat generalised to make it easier to list them in my database. I know, I have a database of this crap.
    Click on a players name and a link should take you to their transfermarkt page should there be one.

    1st team keepers
    Daniel Bachmann
    Ben Foster
    Adam Parkes

    Pontus Dahlberg - out on loan

    1st team defenders
    Craig Cathcart
    Kiko Femenia
    Christian Kabasele
    Adam Masina
    Marc Navarro
    Jeremy Ngakia
    Jorge Segura
    Francisco Sierralta
    William Troost-Ekong
    Williams Velásquez
    Ben Wilmot

    Craig Dawson - out on loan

    1st team midfielders
    Nathaniel Chalobah
    Tom Cleverley
    Tom Dele-Bashiru

    James Garner - on loan
    Will Hughes
    Domingos Quina
    Ken Sema

    Jaime Alvarado (Hoyos) - out on loan
    Juergen Elitim - out on loan
    Ignacio Pussetto - out on loan
    Matheus Santana - out on loan*
    Kwasi Sibo - out on loan

    *It's debatable whether Santana is still at the club or not. Watford announced he left for Real Club Recreativo de Huelva on a permanent transfer while the Spanish side claimed it to be a season long loan.

    1st team attackers
    Troy Deeney
    Andre Gray

    Glenn Murray - on loan
    João Pedro (Junqueira de Jesus)
    Stipe Perica
    Isma*la Sarr
    Filip Stuparevi*
    Isaac Success
    Philip Zinckernagel

    Gerard Deulofeu - out on loan
    Cucho Hernández - out on loan
    Adalberto Penaranda - out on loan
    Jerome Sinclair - out on loan

    U23 team keepers
    Dante Baptiste
    Myles Roberts

    U23 team defenders
    Mason Barrett
    Teddy Perkins
    Maxwell Statham
    Toby Stevenson

    Derek Agyakwa - out on loan
    Bayli Spencer-Adams - out on loan

    U23 team midfielders
    Kane Crichlow
    JJ (John Joshua) McKiernan
    Phoenix Patterson
    Daniel Phillips
    Henry Wise
    Harry Forster

    Joseph Hungbo

    U23 team attackers
    Sam Dalby
    Dominic Hutchinson
    Djibril (Fandje) Touré

    Ryan Cassidy - out on loan

    U18 team keepers
    Mac Chisholm
    Alfie Marriott

    U18 team defenders
    Ryan Andrews
    Jack Broome
    Jack Burchell
    Will Hall
    Andi Janjeva

    George Langston

    U18 team midfielders
    Kamil Conteh
    Jordan Harrison
    Adian Manning
    Mohammed Bosun Lawal
    Sonny Blu Lo-Everton
    Enoch Muwonge
    Ben Smith


    U18 team attackers
    Shaqai Forde
    Thomas Horsewood
    Damani Hunter
    Freddie Moriarty

    Max Thompson

    confirmed academy players
    (or players named in U18 sides but generally 16 or under & not officially named in the U18/23 squads)
    George Abbott - defender
    Tobi Adeyemo - forward
    Adrian Blake - midfield
    Charlie Davis - defender/midfielder
    James Debayo - defender
    Tomas Galvez - defender/midfielder
    Ethan Goulding - defender
    Ben Hall - ?
    Cameron Jessup - defender
    Billy Mardell-Smith - midfielder
    Bogdan Marian - goalkeeper
    Reimeiro Moulton - midfielder
    Basilio Rieno Socoliche - midfielder/attacker
    Freddie Taylor - ?
    Erion Zabeli - defender

    unconfirmed academy players & players recently on trial with the club
    Daniel Atherton - goalkeeper
    Jake Cope - midfielder/attacker
    Thomas DaSilva - ?
    Chi Ezennolim - defender
    Roni Hudd - midfielder
    Adam Hayton - goalkeeper
    Ciaren Jones - defender
    Justen Kranthove - defender
    Maxwell Ndah - midfielder
    Joshua Roach - goalkeeper
    Ibrahim Sunusi - attacker
    Teimo Vazagkasvili - defender

    That's all I have (for now)
     
  2. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    Thanks for this Recluse this is brilliant, but now for the hard bit.

    Using whatever personal knowledge you have of these players, and I appreciate you may not know much about some of them? Who do you think we should do our best to hang on to, and who do you think we should try to get rid of?

    Take it from the first team down, and give whatever detail you can as to why you think players should stay, and if you think they could be pushing for the first team squad this season.

    Finally a question for the moderators is there anyway that this list could be made into a sticky POST that can be edited at any time, by the author of this information "The Recluse". In order to update any incoming players or remove any outgoing players, as well as updating any new information about them.

    Over to you Recluse, are you up for it mate :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  3. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Didn't see this before now. Was there an announcement in the end?

    I can't imagine the EFL has much leverage over the PL in this negotiation.
     
  4. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I've not seen anything UEA. As you say, the EPL could quite easily have just said no to any change or possibly everything is in slow motion because of Covid. I could also have been wrong expecting any resolution soon because a few reports written about the talks. But as I say, nothing has come out as far as I can see.
     
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  5. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I'll be honest VoR, me going through a list of players 5 or 500 long and saying who or why players may or may not make it, who should or shouldn't stay or any kind of speculation is pretty pointless as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm not an expert or a scout, I don't have a crystal ball or access to anything other than a player playing 90 minutes every so often. It will simply be an opinion of which we all have on here and truthfully, it's just guessing really isn't it.

    What I will say with regards to the 1st team players, and I've said it a few times in match day threads when I have decided to say something - players don't have to be the best of the best to be playing but they do have to compliment who they're playing alongside, behind or in front of. We have very few pairings who make, say, the centre-back position solid. Individually most of the CB's are good enough for this league but that isn't good enough if, in a 2, they're both man markers and prefer to engage with the opposition because that means they'll be exposed in their positioning. The same goes for full-back and wide midfielder, centre midfield pairings and strike partnerships. The club has to look at who is already in the squad when they enter the transfer market rather than buying players because they're a bargain at the time.

    As for the U23s and down, trying to give any kind of true insight as to who'll be pushing for the 1st team or who'll be let go once their scholarship ends is impossible to say. Firstly the games the youngsters play in are of a poor standard due to a lack of competitiveness and the standard of players they're playing against. We aren't Cat.1 so I don't see what the supposed very best of the academies are turning out to compare with our players.

    The games are slow and generally messy to watch with ball retention often poor. It can drag good individual players down and quite possibly make average players look better than they are. As examples I'll say Dahlberg has looked leaden footed and to have slow reactions with his shot stopping. Now, after seeing highlights of his time with BK Hacken that is patently not true as he looks more than capable of becoming a decent keeper for the club.

    A little further upfield and Tom Dele-Bashiru made me want to pull my hair out when I saw him for the U23s. Slow, anonymous and lacking in game awareness, I wondered what all the fuss was about. Less than half a year later and after several cameos for the first team he's looked pretty decent and everything he wasn't when I saw him alongside Callum Whelan and others. Maybe it's a mental thing and players struggle to adjust to U23 football after being around the 1st team in training for so long but I would never have picked either Tom D-B or Dahlberg out by what I saw as anything other than U23 fodder.

    Dan Phillips on the other hand has always stood out for the U23s to me and his showings for the 1st team underline another aspect of trying to guess who'll make it. I still think he's good enough, raw but there's a player there. Unless he plays though he'll never gain the experience to raise his game, get acclimatised to a higher standard of football or possibly just get found out as a promising youngster who never took to 1st team football for any number of reasons, and not all of them to do with footballing ability.

    If the kids coming through aren't given minutes throughout a season the club will never know either but do the owners have the patience to watch them learn by the mistakes they'll inevitably make and, just as importantly, have the supporters?

    As for trying to say who from the U18s will progress is even more pointless as at that age not only is there vast differences as to the standard and age of opposition week in week out but younger individuals are generally prone to huge swings of form. They're growing as young men as well as young footballers so their performances will be affected by what's going on away from the club as well as on the training ground. They all have a basic level of talent otherwise they wouldn't be persevered with so it comes down to attitude and the willingness to improve week after week, and that is impossible to see from a supporters point of view.

    One last thing to say about U18s football and that is it's also a big leap from that level to U23s. Dom Hutchinson was banging in goals for the younger set last season and all the talk was of a quick and technically good player who can play wide, centrally and from a deep position going forward. He's been described by the club as a leader too.

    This season, now aged 19 and having his first taste of playing against bigger, stronger men he has looked withdrawn and limited as to what he can do. Not really strong enough, unable to hold the ball when playing up top on his own and not showing any prowess in front of goal. But he's transitioning from boys to mens football so has to be given time. The last couple of games I watched he had started to show more awareness, had a bit more confidence in his own ability with some smart footwork and was managing to impose himself physically on defenders.

    He would certainly benefit playing alongside another forward but will he learn more by playing up front on his own? Do we want results at youth level or progress for individuals? And that also makes it difficult to judge who'll make it or who shows most promise at any given time because we (I) don't know the individual plans for the players and what each match represents for them at U23/U18 level.

    Bosun Lawal looks like a real gem though ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  6. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    Thanks for your comprehensive reply, and no problem mate I get your point, I just thought it might of been something you might enjoy doing, and I am sure many on here would have been interested in your comments.

    Thanks for the comprehensive print out of the WFC players, and keep up the good work you do on here, especially with regard to our younger and lesser known players. I for one appreciate it and I am sure I am not alone in that.

    Cheers mate VoR
     
  7. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Top stuff as always mate.
     
  8. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    No problem VoR.

    I'm becoming more hesitant in giving opinions on individuals at the academy because I've next to nothing to compare them with. Because of my natural bias and a want for players to be good at Watford I'll naturally see good things in an exaggerated way or not see the negatives as well as I could or should, so I'm probably not giving a true account of what is there anyway.

    One thing I have noticed in the last couple of years though is how much the youngsters are better prepared physically. They no longer look like wet blankets and are generally competing on an equal footing in that regard, something I thought was lacking for a long time.

    There is also a better technical ability now throughout all positions so the standard of training and/or coach has improved at the academy which I find encouraging. Basically, the U18s all look very comfortable with the ball at their feet and that isn't always apparent with players at the top end of the club.
     
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  9. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Thanks GD, it's much appreciated.
     
  10. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Harry Forster's loan at Bromley FC has been extended until May 29, 2021.
    The 20-yr old wide midfielder/attacker initially joined the National League side in September, lasting until January 4th.

    Forster's contract with Watford ends in June but the club hold a one year option to extend it if they so wish.

    https://www.watfordfc.com/news/academy-forsters-bromley-loan-extended

    Harry Forster's loan deal at National League side Bromley has been extended until May 29.
    The versatile midfielder signed a new one-year deal with the Hornets in August before joining the Ravens on loan in September.
    Forster has made 10 appearances for Bromley and scored both goals in a 2-0 FA Trophy win against Hemel Hempstead Town on December 22.
    We wish Harry well for the remainder of his loan.
     
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  11. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Watford U18s will play Lincoln City away in the FA Youth Cup 4th Round at some point in the near future.

    The Imps youngsters beat Preston North End 1-0 this afternoon in what was a pretty decent 2nd half display of counter attacking play.

    I didn't see the 1st half but PNE looked by far the more accomplished side in the second period, managing to pass through Lincolns midfield on a number of occasions but lacking either a final pass or a clear chance to score.

    Lincoln will be difficult to play against as, like PNE, Watford like to be on the front foot so will have to guard against the quick breakaway play City enjoyed today.

    Todays game was on YouTube just in case you're wondering how I watched.
     
  12. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    He's back and it's really ******* me off not knowing who this player is.

    In this afternoons Zinckernagel video on twitter (https://twitter.com/WatfordFC/status/1346871904087334913?s=20) I'm pretty sure a player nobody could recognise in pre-season made an appearance.

    Wearing #77, he's tall and erm... tall.

    Here he is in pre-season.
    Watford 7 preseason.jpeg

    And here he is in todays video.
    Screenshot 2021-01-06 at 17.48.24.jpeg

    WHO ARE YOU!?!
     
  13. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    I don't know but is that Vydra in the background?
     
  14. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    Filip Stuparevi? I am not certain, but just a suggestion based on looking at photos of Filip Stuparevi and the fact that he is 1.84 m tall.
     
  15. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Okay. Progress with regards to #77.

    I asked on twitter and was told he was called Thiago on the pre-season video.
    Watching back to where I first saw him, I managed to completely miss the goal he scored against Woking near the end of the video. I mean, he scores a nice header from a free-kick and runs up close to the camera to hi-5 Henry Wise. I can't believe I missed that first time round.

    Anyway, Omar Riza can be heard shouting out his name after he scores and the edit cuts to Riza's view of the goal where he can be heard more clearly.

    The goal action starts at 24:42.



    edit: further progress - I'm being trolled by Omar Riza now as he likes each 'Thiago' tweet. Obviously I've asked for a surname but I doubt he'll name him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  16. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I thought that when I first saw him early in the season but this new player (Thiago - see above) has tattoos whereas Stuparevic doesn't.
     
  17. DrewH

    DrewH Administrator Staff Member

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  18. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    You are correct that Filip Stuparevic does not have tattoos in the photographs, but I wondered whether he might have had the tattoos done recently if it were Stuparevic. But who is Thiago? 18 year old Tiago Cukur (suggested by DrewH) has dual citizenship (the Netherlands and Turkey), but he is 1.96 m tall and his current club is shown as AZ Alkmaar U-19 on Transfermarkt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  19. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    Certainly looks like him.
     
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  20. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

  21. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Oh that's good DrewH! Thank you!!

    I'll drop his name with Omar Riza, see if I get a reaction
     
  22. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Can he play front?

    In midfield or at left back?
     
  23. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    Another website (talenticalciatori) shows Tiago Cukur's height as 1.88 m. He is a central striker.
    Quite difficult to recognize Tiago Cukur from the photos, although his eyebrows do look very similar.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  24. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    When I was comparing the two, Stuparevic's body and even his face is a lot fuller than this other player in recent photo's.

    Transfermarkt is only as good as the information supplied and is often way behind if nothing official is announced by clubs so, personally, I use it as a handy guide rather than somewhere for up to date info.

    The height thing rings true though, Tiago looks huge in todays video.
     
  25. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Just to try and remove any doubt as to the player being Tiago Cukur, here are two videos showing his movement is pretty much spot on in both Watford and Alkmaar colours.

    45secs & 3:30 you can see the same slightly awkward running style as in the second video.




    Once again, thank you @DrewH
     
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  26. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

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  27. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    This kid looks good, lets hope no bugga comes in and nicks him from us.

    He is currently a CB, but I wonder if he might become a DMF/playmaker with the skills he appears to have.
     
  28. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I think that skill level will be the norm for the majority of academy players now VoR and is needed as much for defenders as midfielders the way the ball is passed out from the back.

    He looks a decent defender and has already gained international recognition from both Wales and England, so I don't think he'll be changing position in the near future.
     
  29. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    A little news on the Tiago Cukur front.

    Omer Riza scouted and played a major part in bringing the young forward to the club, who have, and I quote, "high expectations for..."

    Well obviously they have high expectations for him but to me that suggests he's not here on a trial basis but has some kind of contract or scholarship in place otherwise what I've been told would have been worded differently, I think.

    I don't know if @DrewH has anymore information with regards to his contract status or if he's able to make it public if so.

    It's interesting (to me) Riza was at the forefront of Cukur being at Watford as he is of Turkish Cypriot descent while the player, though born in Holland is a Turkish citizen with obvious roots to the country because of his name.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  30. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Ex-Crystal Palace, Coventry & Millwall defender Richard Shaw is now part of the academy coaching set-up.

    According to the Coventry City Former Players site - what do you mean you don't subscribe to their newsletter!?! - Shaw has joined as a PDP Development Coach.

    I've no idea what that is but Watford did advertise for a Professional Development Coach last September so I'm going to take a leap of faith and say that's the role he's taken up.
    Details of the role are here: https://www.watfordfc.com/storage/16043/Job-Advert-Professional-Development-Coach-Sept-2020.pdf

    Shaw has some decent coaching experience, being caretaker-manager for Millwall's 1st team in 2007 while still a player before being given a permanent coaching role by the incoming manager Kenny Jackett.

    Four years later he became assistant manager at Coventry, being second in command to ex-Wimbledon centre-back Andy Thorn.
    A year later Thorn was sacked and Shaw took the caretaker reigns once more. He left shortly after new boss Mark Robins appointed his own staff.

    In 2013 he returned to Crystal Palace and a year later was lead U16 coach before taking over the U23 team at some point.
    Shaw left South London "to pursue other opportunities" around October 2019.

    Seems like a solid appointment to me.
     
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  31. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    How long will he last ?!

    We seem to appoint quite a few who only stay a while - bit like the first team I guess !
     
  32. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    You just cannot be shaw,err sure.
     
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  33. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    The FA Youth Cup has been suspended with immediate effect meaning Watford's 4th Round tie against Lincoln will not be played until the national lockdown restrictions are lifted.

    https://www.thefa.com/news/2021/jan/12/fa-youth-cup-2020-21-season-suspended-20211201

    Although no confirmation as of Tuesday 12th, this must also put into doubt the U18 & U23 league fixtures for the rest of the season. Age groups below those had already been suspended, although it is possible for 15/16-yr olds to train with the U18s I believe.

    I also think that's why we're seeing a lot of the U23s in the 1st team squad's training videos & clips as they're now '1st team squad players' and can follow their Covid guidelines.
     
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  34. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

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  35. DrewH

    DrewH Administrator Staff Member

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