Xisco Munoz

Discussion in 'Former Players Archive' started by The Recluse, Dec 18, 2020.

  1. Klein Lust

    Klein Lust Uber Keine

    Merry Xmas from Wales fellow 'Orns
     
  2. rochdale away

    rochdale away Reservist

    And a merry Christmas from Norwich.....hopefully I can wear full Watford colours on Sunday.

    forgot we’re going tier 4....not allowed out!
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  3. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    Sit out on the front lawn in full kit?
     
  4. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Merry Christmas from Barbados everybody
     
  5. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    This 'player power' thing everybody goes on about: There's a pretty extensive body of evidence that it exists, although most of this seems inferred from second-hand sources; not much is primary source material.
    What if, for instance, the players largely felt not only that Ivic was hard to like when you had to work with him day in, day out, but that he was actually wrong in his strategies and tactics? What if they genuinely struggled to make his systems work and really wanted to do better but were making no headway with a latter-day spartan?
    In other words, what if the players were rebelling for what many of us would consider good reasons?
     
    Dorset-Orn and Knight GT like this.
  6. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I must say I am happy Ivic has gone so in that respect I am not surprised the players were not happy. My problem is it happens on numerous occasions. Players running up to dugout and calling Sannino a d*ckhead. Players down tools to get Walt sacked. Nice guy Javi taken advantage of in lax efforts. Whatever may or may not have happened with Pearson/Masina.

    Add to that players who just arse around like Success and Peneranda and I think we have a poor culture. And I think that culture comes from the top. I do think we are rotten compared to other clubs and I’m embarrassed of us.
     
    wfcmoog and iamofwfc like this.
  7. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Yeah - but knowing the Watford£ has been run over the last 18 months, we will be recruiting players exclusively from Brazil.
     
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    The thing is it will only really be anecdotal stuff because the managers are always going to be tied up in NDA’s and the players aren’t going to say much themselves, or the club just try and put a spin on it like they did over Troy’s falling out with Ivic.

    For me, this quote from Troy after Ivic had only been there a couple of days is quite telling:

    “But he’s a real nice guy, he’s coached us really well over the first few days and none of the boys are moaning, which is always good”

    To me that suggests it’s a regular thing that happens with most managers, the players get fed up easily and start moaning about their methods before long, irrespective of who the manager is and what their actual methods are.
     
  9. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It was interesting to watch Masina's recent interview, before Ivic went, as he kept repeating how the players needed to start enjoying their football again.

    Certainly, they have looked like a miserable bunch for months. They seem to be devoid of any free spirit, and constantly over-think what they are doing on the pitch. I am hoping that the departing coach was the main reason for that, and that the players react well to the new coach, as improving their mindset will bring the biggest improvement in performances.
     
    Dorset-Orn, 3000, Moose and 3 others like this.
  10. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    You can get Norwich at 7/4 on Skybet.

    Please gamble responsibly.
     
    folkestone orn and wimbornet like this.
  11. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Then why are they having to rebel every 6 months?
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  12. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Certainly the attacking players would have not enjoyed it.

    Sarr did his best but looked totally frustrated by the tactics and Pedro started well but game fell away.

    The strikers are a right mish mash of either out of favour or out of form....

    I don't know about on here but read a lot of comments about how people switched off the Hive or just didn't pay for it at all in the end.

    Did the money form that go to the club? - they probably suffered a fall in revenue if so.

    Let's see if we can have a settled side - every game there must have been at least one change in defence or midfield.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  13. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    We are always an attractive proposition. 6 months work for the price of 18 coaching in a top league. It did Gracia no harm nor Joka, QSF or Silva. Pearson took the plaudits, widely escaped the blame because, oh it’s just Watford. Mazzari just sailed on. Ivic maybe a bit more damaged, but he can still show he had us in the play off positions.

    Most coaches would take the Watford job because it’s better than being unemployed. A few have better options, but rarely would it just be pride. We are like a bad boyfriend and they all think they can change us, make us go to IKEA at the weekend like regular quiche eating guys.
     
  14. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Betting on Norwich is about as responsible as it gets tbh
     
  15. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    To take TUT's point, then why have we only attracted this absolute no mark with precisely zero experience apart from a couple of weeks in South Bumphukksville?
     
    lutonh8a likes this.
  16. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    Because he is cheap.
     
    Moose likes this.
  17. Dorset-Orn

    Dorset-Orn First Year Pro

    I agree with this but having thought about it often with WFC, I get the feeling that footballers are just a mixture of personality types on a different level of insanity to us meer mortals, and the outcome of any team semantics is almost beyond control.
    You've got: player ability, fitness, strength of mind (or not), confidence, fear of injury, fear of manager, hate the manager, manager doesn't seem to rate me, hate his training methods, dislike 4 of my team mates, I'm so much better than this club, where's my next big payday, I earn 2 mil a year f everyone...
    Etc etc.
    Then a manager gets his team bouncing and alls great, until he loses two players and brings in two more, and somehow its not working.
    You can't even say the top 8 Prem teams have it all sussed, football just seems to be be a very fickle game.? Few managers can keep it high for more than the odd year or so.
    I think this is why so many British managers have historically chosen the hack and bash approach - average players giving 100pct and playing to a tight remit can get them a reasonable season outcome, and many lower league teams rely on simple game plan and trying to rekindle some form of "Wimbledon Dons nutters" unity you can't get with top players.
    It's a crazy game at Pro level...
     
    Forzainglese likes this.
  18. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    It's a good question.
    I suspect the reasons Watford are playing badly are various and complex. Not all the players will be reacting in the same way. And I think it is not always possible to tell by simply watching them play. Capoue, for instance, has been criticized in the past for being lazy, when it turned out he was actually running further than anybody else during a match. Pereyra, on the other hand, was clearly lazy and switched off. There are big questions as to what Sarr thinks he is doing out there. And so on.
    It seems quite likely to me that Ivic has been a part of the problem: The team's set-ups and style have been terrible.
    But I don't claim to have all of the answers.
    Gino Pozzo will be having a tough time of it: Not only is he between a rock and a hard place, but it is likely mostly his fault.
     
  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    As Dom says, cheap. If we wanted/could spend more we could attract a coach with a better resume. This is a punt, but I doubt it’s wholly a wild shot in the dark.
     
  20. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    It's clearly a wild shot in the dark. Theres no light on his career for it to be anything else.

    It's utterly contemptible recklessness.

    Best case the players apply themselves for a few weeks to show they were right to get Vlad sacked and then we return to normal

    This guy isn't the answer to our deep rooted woes. He's barely a band aid.
     
    GoingDown, NathWFC and K9 Hornet like this.
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    That’s simply not true. If he was a UEFA cup winner from England who had played for Chelsea rather than Valencia we would know who he was. He’s clearly been on a management trajectory, but took a back woods route that he knew.

    Chill out and enjoy the ride.
     
  22. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I think it’s exacerbated with us by the type of player we tend to bring in though. Of course there are exceptions, Sarr, Richarlison, Pedro, they’re all players with potential that are upwardly mobile, there isn’t as much of a problem with those type of players, but even then they’re sold Watford as a stepping stone to bigger clubs, so can’t expect any loyalty from them.

    The bulk of our squad is generally made up of players that have a question mark next to their name, we look for value by going for damaged goods. Players that have failed at a higher level already, have question marks about their motivation and application.

    Capoue has been a great player for the club, but what has he got to aim for now? Players like Cleverly, Chalobah, Dawson, Gray... they have nothing they can really achieve in football anymore, their careers peaked before us, but equally they’ve got nice contracts fall back on.

    Of course you need a balance, but I think we rely to heavily on that type of player. Sure we’ve got players like Ngakia and Quina, but they’ve both already played at a higher level and not quite cut it, so we’re relying on somehow making them better players than they have been up to now, and how is our track record for that.

    Toney is the obvious example, but I don’t think we look for enough talent that hasn’t made it yet and will be hungry to achieve something in the game. Not a load of has beens with our success relying on enough of them deciding to have good games at the right time.
     
    Dorset-Orn likes this.
  23. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    He's an unprecedented level of ****. If he had come from being one of our players, of course that would be different.

    Taking unqualified nobodies from the footballing black spot on the Caspian Sea is a new low for the Pozzos and justifying it is a new low for their apologists.
     
    Jumbolina likes this.
  24. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I think it’s easy to see the logic behind it though, it isn’t completely deranged.

    There isn’t any manager who could guarantee us promotion at this point, hypothetically (because he wouldn’t actually come) you could chuck a load of cash at Howe and we’d potentially still not get automatics.

    This guy is cheap and can be dispensed with immediately. As long as we don’t miss out on the play offs we’ve effectively lost nothing. The other managers available were all undoubtedly better qualified but guaranteed to do nothing. This guy could be appalling or he could be great, at least he has the potential to be great.

    Whatever happens he won’t be here at the end of the season at which point a more sensible manager will have been identified.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  25. Dorset-Orn

    Dorset-Orn First Year Pro

    OK scratch my recent post, yours is better.! Your summary is a very good pointer to why we have so many "awkward" player types, we'd never find another Robbo/Mooney type these days and that's what we really would wish for...
     
  26. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I think it’s a question of balance, for example Sheffield Utd pay top dollar for home grown talent, the problem is they’re expensive so you have to get every buy absolutely spot on. They probably need to look at a few more overseas players to stretch their budget a bit more. But if you fill your squad with too many Peyreras you get the odd good game out of them but it’s impossible to motivate them beyond a certain point.
     
  27. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member


    Welcome to Watford however briefly. Nice to see he has the number of hours he will stay printed on his jacket. 990.
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  28. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Must be uncomfortable sitting on that fence!

    I think we should compromise, give him 11 games and then let Troy decide.
     
  29. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    New around here?
     
  30. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    I'm starting to think that some of the COGs aren't COGs at all and just fancy an online sparring session like in the laughable politics forum. There's simply no way this can be justified legitimately by anyone with any sanity.
     
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  31. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    'Maybe erm, ....wait may he's, ......wait, no maybe we could,..... no, give me a moment erm, ah *snaps fingers* maybe appointing a criminally unqualified nobody that smiles a lot and has no track record whatsoever is exactly what we need. I mean it worked for *searches frantically for any example of this happening in history without disastrous results, comes up blank, diverts to false equivalence* Frank Lampard.

    Yes. Pozzo has done well here. Let's give this guy a chance.'
     
  32. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Unfair. Munoz played under Rafa for 5 minutes and used to make notes in his notebook about fighting like animals and things being perfect.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  33. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Well, if he worked for a manager, that ultimately means he is more or less a manager.

    I worked for Abbey National when I was 18. I'm gonna apply to be a bank CEO in the New Year.
     
  34. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Not at all.

    In fact, to use an oft used quote, I think it’s a must win game.
     
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Wise words
     

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