Pozzo Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by RookeryLad, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. ForzaWatford

    ForzaWatford Squad Player

    Is it too controversial to say that they've been brilliant owners, still are brilliant owners for a club of our size but do deserve some criticism for how this season has gone?
     
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  2. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    I would say that is probably the most sensible post of this thread. :)
     
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  3. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Yep.

    One of the most disappointing things about this current situation is that surely by now the Pozzos must have clocked where the deficiencies in the squad are and where we need upgrades, but unfortunately this realisation may have come too late for them to do anything about if we end up going down.

    Were we to stay up I'd actually be confident that the Pozzos could do some good business in the summer, whereas if we go down there could be a fire-sale of all our remaining quality and promising assets.
     
  4. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    The Pozzos are great owners for a Championship club. Their carousel of foreign players had enough hits to get us up.

    Once the time came for serious investment at Premier League level, however, they've shown they lack judgement, whether signing the wrong players, neglecting weaker areas or sticking with players who are duds.

    They should have got us up and sold us on. Take their profit and **** off.
     
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  5. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Maybe, but to be fair how many consecutive seasons is this in the prem ? How many relegation battles ? No one will buy a small club like us and make us a consistent top half prem side. It's always been just a matter of time......
     
  6. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Our first proper relegation fight in 5 years. What did you realistically expect?
     
  7. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    The problem with the Pozzo model in the top flight is that it appears to consistently rely on a policy of skating as close to the wind as is possible. They haven't suffered a relegation in 25 years in Italy with Udinese, which is great, but the difference there is that whilst Serie A is a great league, there is nowhere near the same level of competition outside the traditional big few at the top of the table. Udinese have never had to face the kind of jeopardy we do every season, and yet at the same time even they have still themselves consistently flirted with the relegation battle over the past few seasons.

    When it comes to us, we can't afford the same kind of lax recruitment and penny-pinching (Sarr aside, although his transfer fee is a matter of serious debate and I doubt anyone thinks they wouldn't already make a significant profit on him); everything has to go exactly right basically by chance, and this season multiple things have gone wrong. On top of that, if you have always followed the line that they were hard-nosed businessmen who knew how to operate unlike all these other chancers, the decisions they have taken this season in regard to the Head Coach alone should be enough to throw serious doubt on that conviction.

    Either there needs to be some kind of change in approach, or they need to consider outside investment of one kind or another. Am I asking us to be transformed into a consistent Europe-challenging team? No, of course not. But grubbing around looking for scraps at the bottom of the table with diminishing returns year on year is not a great direction for the project to be going in, 5 years into its current phase.
     
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  8. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    Been absolutely brilliant for us. Never would have dreamed in a million years that Gerard Deulofeu or Roberto Pereyra would be playing for Watford.

    However, I have one major issue with them which touches on two points and if they don't address them it's going to be a long road for us (if we survive here)

    My main issue is the lack of investment in defenders. I think there's a number of reasons for the Pozzo's not investing big in defenders but the most obvious one being, they traditionally didn't return much.

    However, in the current market, fees for the likes of Maguire, VVD, Stones, Laporte, Mendy, Walker, Cancelo, etc shows that it is now outdated thinking.

    I believe the Pozzo scouting network can unearth gems in defence who we can make a profit from. Even bang average defenders are being sold or flouted for crazy money. Dunk, Tarkowski, Mangala, Mustafi, Bailly, Diallo just to name a few!

    I think they need to update their model, it'd be stupid of me to assume owners with their experience are not already looking but they need to speed up. Femenia, Masina, Dawson, Cathcart, Kabasele & Holebas probably all cost a sum of like £10 mill max.
     
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  9. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    A club with 5 years of premier league turnover should not be playing catch up in terms of squad building, against sides with 1 or 2 or even 0 years.

    It's pure complacency.

    We have had ample time to fix the glaring deficiencies in our side. We haven't. We've seen windows come and go and we sign the wrong players for the wrong positions, whilst players who should have been released/sold/loaned out are given extensions to try and paper over the cracks.

    We often hear people talk about the critical fans in disparaging terms, as if they don't know what they are talking about, yet it's hard to see how the likes of Nath, Jumbo, Gags etc have been wrong in their criticism of policy over the past 2 or 3 years.

    It's been leading up to this moment. To this very side that lost to a diminished, fatigued Burnley team with no tangible motivation.
     
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  10. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Outside investment has already been talked about but aside from that I’m not sure what you’re hoping for. We are not cash rich and in football terms neither is Gino. Why should he spend masses of his own money when he thinks he has a way of doing things that might work. It does look as though we have 2 or 3 players out on loan who could make a difference and if we are to survive that’s vital. We will always need to sell to survive.
    Mistakes have been made this year but people are allowed to do this.
    At some point we were always going to struggle and possibly go down because we are a very small fish in a very big pond. The abuse Gino is now getting despite giving us the most successful side we’ve seen in over 30 years is astonishing. Spoiled brats springs to mind. i
    I’ve seen people seriously want Gino out of the club! People seem to forget the years in the wilderness, flirting with administration on more than one occasion, the football from 1990-95, a horrible looking ground, crowds of under 10000. These didn’t just happen under Bassini but under many owners since we went down in 1988. I purposely stayed away from the forum after the Burnley game because I know we didn’t play well, Radio 5 thought we were excellent second half, but there seemed to be a feeling on here that we had a god given right to just turn up at Burnley and we would win. The fact we didn’t was just a complete disgrace and most should never play for the club again. It is the typical reaction every time we lose. I looked at the Burnley team when it was announced and it was pretty good, just with not a lot on the bench. They are 11th with 42 points so are clearly quite decent.
    rant over
     
  11. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    We don't have the finances to strengthen more than those around us. We will lose ground every season. Norwich and Muff came up with us and are in the crap with us. Who has been promoted since us and established themselves better than we have ? Leicester and Newcastle are much bigger clubs. SU are a one season wonder. Brighton are down there with us. We are just another smaller version of Stoke and Bolton enjoying a few seasons in the sun before we slip down. Over all this time, previous giants like NF, Leeds, Birmingham, Ipswich haven't been able to play in the same league as us. We will be relegated this season, or next, or the one after. Enjoy it while it lasts. In years to come, we will refer to this as a golden era in the same way we do with the 5 seasons and FA cup final we enjoyed under God.
     
  12. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I don't have oversight on the finances and dealings of the other 10-12 clubs outside of the giants whom we need to make our home amongst, but I do know what we've done and we have made the same mistakes over and over and over again.

    We don't need a sugar daddy owner to have signed 2 or 3 defenders of a significantly higher calibre than we have done.

    We have spent millions on players who ply their trade in Segunda or lower La Liga sides, but who don't benefit us. We've signed mediocre misfiring misfits time and time again for significant fees, because they fit the 'pozzo model' but don't enhance the Watford team or squad.

    How are Burnley fielding 3rd and 4th choice strikers better than our 1sr, whilst their defenders are all of a much higher calibre and their Goalkeeper is 9 years younger than ours? Do they have bigger resources? Genuine question because I don't know much about such dealings.
     
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  13. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Burnley played like they always do which is difficult to play against. They had a very decent first eleven.
    We will never have the money just to go and spend what we want no matter how long we’re in this division. I agree that we needed a central defender but I also wonder whether we felt we would be ok and that financially it would be better to get someone like Sarr that hopefully will make the club a lot of money which is what we need.
    Cathcart and Kabasele are not the worst defenders in the league but I do feel just bringing in Dawson left us short, I certainly can’t argue with that. Other positions it does seem we have some players coming through finally. We just seem to have very short memories
     
  14. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I'm actually worried about the notion of pinning our hopes on these players out on loan.

    Would Cucho or Suarez be the chosen players to target, if they were not ours? Are they suited to Watford or even the Premier League?

    It seems like a half baked strategy to me. They were players signed for financial, not football reasons. To turn a profit. Now we are to hope that they somehow fit the mould and become the right players for our first team?

    Maybe it's because or Success, and Peneranda that I just don't buy it.

    I can just see them coming in, making one or two cup appearances and an ineffective sub appearance here or there, before we send them out on loan again or make an inter club sale to Udinese or something.
     
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  15. Loyalhornet

    Loyalhornet Reservist

    Thank you Knight GT ! A bit of common sense . I sometimes wonder what planet a lot of people in here are on . I don’t know many Watford supporters outside if this forum , but I’m sure these can’t reflect the views of the majority . In my life time Elton was Obviously our best owner And no one will be er compare , but outside of that there is simply no comparison . We are a well run club making ( largely ... ) Sensible decisions with a desire to push for Europe but not at the expense of ruining the club . The Pozzos have also stayed true to the history and values of our club . What they did for the nhs was outstanding and these things matter to me as much as what’s happening in the pitch ( which by the way had been incredibly enjoyable for me .., this season being largely an exception ) . Yes they have made mistakes but their intentions are always focussed on the good and progrsssion of the club.

    The criticism the Pozzos get is so inconsistent also . Earlier on in the season when Sarr hadnt settled he was a massive waste of money and the reason why we’ll get relegated . I don’t see anyone actually acknowledging what an unsourced signing he was now that he is probably one of our main hope of staying up . The narrative on here seems to be conveniently slotted in depending on what’s happening at the time . Running a football club is not an exact science and sometimes ‘sh*t happens !’
     
  16. Loyalhornet

    Loyalhornet Reservist

    Just to add to this : those criticising the Pozzo model and how apparently it only worked in the championship . What model do you think would be better for a club of our size ? I am only aware of 2 previous failed attempts to keep us in the premier league and this time we have had 5 seasons ( hopefully more to come ) compared to finishing rock bottom both times

    . I’m not criticising those regimes ( though Simpson ended up wasting the money ) but I think this approach has worked about 10 times better)

    Those saying too much emphasis on attacking players and not investing in defenders ( although I agree with this to a point ) would probably be the first to Criticise the Pozzos At how tedious the football was, if we’d decided to put out a strong defensive line up with no flair season after season and survived by not conceding goals . They would probably be suggesting they’d rather we were back in the championship .
     
  17. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    This contains a hefty dose of several popular disingenuous red herrings, though, unfortunately.

    If you think you're brilliantly enlightening people by pointing out that our owners are, in relative terms, poor, I'm afraid you're labouring under a misapprehension. If you read me mention outside investment, I don't really know what you could be confused by about 'what I'm hoping for'. Whether Gino is cash rich in that situation is irrelevant; I'm expressly not talking about his finances there. What we are looking for is to be able to compete. Don't forget that part of the Pozzo model is to be in the top division; it's financially a lot healthier for them than not.

    > Why should he spend masses of his own money when he thinks he has a way of doing things that might work

    Hmmm, real-world observation and analysis, perhaps? Just off the top of my head.

    Being a big fish in a small pond doesn't actually mean you are destined to go down, certainly not after five years given that, for example, a team like Stoke managed ten, and if that's the mentality then what is the point in ever competing in the first place? We might as well just put our hands up and volunteer for relegation at the beginning of the season as we tug our forelocks at the master clubs in the big house; 'Gee, thanks mister, we've had such a swell time here, we're just lucky to have been allowed to be present at all'.

    Why does this conversation always have to devolve in the most ridiculous extremes? Suddenly, according to you, everyone's a baying mob, demanding Gino be ousted today, despite the fact that we're a world-beating team who've just collected our second consecutive Champions League and don't forget ten years ago when we could only field 4 players at Rushden and Diamonds on a cold, dark Monday morning. Very few people have even called for Gino out, and the discussion has been extremely measured, except in your own reporting. But what we are discussing is what has happened, and what has gone wrong enough to put us in this position, and what might have to happen to recover from it. It's the point of a forum. You say that 'mistakes are allowed to happen', and that is theoretically true, but how many before you start even considering why they are happening? Apparently, it's a great deal.

    > Radio 5 thought we were excellent second half,

    If that is true, then I'm afraid you were misled. Anyone who watched the match knows that we weren't at all excellent in the second half; we managed to get ourselves bothered to have a go for the first time in the match for the 20 minutes or so until we conceded, and then immediately collapsed into nothingness again.

    > there seemed to be a feeling on here that we had a god given right to just turn up at Burnley and we would win.

    This is such utter b.ollocks, and the most disingenuous part of all of it. The vast majority of discussion on here before the game was how 'Watfordy' it would be to lose, whilst noting what an opportunity it represented given the state Burnley found themselves in this week in terms of injuries and behind the scenes turmoil. Almost no one (if anyone at all, in any serious capacity) claimed we have a god-given right to win, nor that all we had to do was turn up.
     
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  18. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Agree with this.

    All the talk on here about desperately needing defenders, having the oldest age of any squad in the PL, reappointing Quique Flores, the slow death of our youth system and investing in endless average players who are on loan at other clubs are slotted in narratives by fly by night critics.

    You naysayers should have mentioned it last year or something to be taken seriously.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  19. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Pearson ought to be given a contract so the players need to know they have to play. He also needs to be given more control over domestic scouting, transfers and other decisions. The current model is not working as well as it should particularly with respect to an ageing squad.

    What is Eric Roy doing at the moment for instance. Why do we need Giraldi. I'd rather NP and CS make the decisions. They have plenty of contacts in the game. They know ability when they see it and I am sure they could encourage someone like Louie Sibley to come here and do well. We need some fresh blood with talent. We quailed at the prospect of signing Ake for instance. A colossus that holds Bournemouth together he shines out even in defeat over there. His worth would have tripled by now but we ran away scared.

    The experiment to secure domestic talent is non existent, the youth development programme is not good enough and with debacle after debacle would any young kid want to come here. Pearson can change that around but he needs more time and more control. Gino has to be wise enough to allow it to happen.
     
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  20. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    It's ok, you'll be ranting a lot harder when we are in the lower half of the Championship anxiously looking over our shoulders whilst heading off to Wycombe away.
     
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  21. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I agree we have made some odd and some poor signings. No question. Not signing top quality strikers I understand. They are just too expensive for us and when they spent big on Gray it didn't come off. Seeing £18m effectively p****d down the drain but be eye-watering for them. Why risk that again when you aren't that wealthy and prices have doubled since then. Recent defensive signings, Dawson, Femenia, Masina have been bargain basement. Should we have spent more? Maybe. Easy for us to say, it's not our money and they are losing money now despite prem income. High stakes because relegation could financially kill this club .....and relegation will happen.
     
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Its a fair opinion but I disagree. Yes they did well in the first few years, but now our external debt gets bigger and bigger as the squad gets weaker as it becomes stale and ages. I think that qualifies as a poor owner. I think they are obsessed with their player trading and loan network and none of these players ever arrive in our squad unless they are duds like Peneranda. The level of debt is what worries me the most.
     
  23. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    What a shame. A proper conversation threatened to develop but you went back to your nonsense about labelling anyone who disagrees with “spoiled brats”. Then threw in your usual line about staying away from the forum after a defeat because everyone else isn’t as good a fan as you.

    How tedious you are.
     
  24. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Incredibly Burnley finances are in tip top shape because they are actually well run by their owners.
     
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  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    TBF they are fairly unique and their wage bill exceeds ours. Maybe "the Pozzo model" of finding cheap gems and bringing them on doesn't work anymore. Others' scouting networks have caught up and passed us. We are paying the same for second rate prospects now ?
     
  26. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Where do I say I’m a better fan than anybody else. I think you’re the tedious one
     
  27. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Yes, 100%.
     
  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I'm not so sure the long contract thing makes any difference in players' minds. They all know a bad run of results gets the coach sacked. Wasn't Gracia on a 4 year contact with a 3 year extension? Look how they played for him at the end.

    For me, there is a question mark over Pearson right now. The players are performing well under their abilities currently. 9 games, 1 win and only 6 points attained is an abysmal return, and the wont have gone unnoticed. Looking back, had we not got that incredible win against Liverpool he'd probably would have been sacked already. Throwaway wins against Everton and Brighton, lame defeats at Palace, Burnley and Villa. Heavy defeat at United. Only Pussetto's last gasp clearance and Dawson's last minute overhead kick preventing two further defeats. It's a wretched run of form only being held together by that amazing win against Liverpool.

    Before the Burnley match, I was fully behind Pearson, but that has sewn a seed of doubt in my mind. The bad run is evident and players are not responding to him. We are still making silly mistakes and the back, but more worryingly look so stale up front. Without Deulofeu there is absolutely no invention.

    It's not as if we have no talent up there. Deeney, Sarr, Welbeck, Pererya, Pussetto, Penaranda, Pedro....erm Gray (ok I'm pushing it), but you can make something better from that lot I'm sure. We look like we're never going to score, or when we get a chance we look terrified of missing, do not take the opportunity or rush it without any composure. It's down to the coach for teach tactics and mindset. This is his job.

    After his initial start, which was wonderful, we're steadily declining back to the crap of QSF and Gracia.

    It's easy to knock the owner, or make suggestions where he's going wrong, but you always have to take a step back and look at where we were before he came. We've made massive strides as a club, now we're at the stage where we're talking about a new stadium. This is a huge commitment to the betterment of the club. Virtually everything he's done has improved the club, so my trust is with Gino. If he wants to employ Ronald McDonald as head of recruitment so be it. Giraldi does get a lot of stick, but I think most of that comes from his pitch side visibility. Fans don't like to see it, which is understandable.

    Have we bought wisely every time? No, of course not, but what we do is take an educated punt on a player in the hope he will fulfil his potential. It's a difficult skill but we are in a market with all those Premier League clubs, all those leading Championship clubs. In the world of football we still do not have that pulling power which many of our competitors have. This is why a new stadium will help raise our profile. If we look the part, players, agents etc will buy into it more readily.

    We are after those players that just drop through the cracks and are either missed by the top clubs or have lost their way a little (Pereyra, Deulofeu). We go for players who are a gamble and are difficult to sign (Richarlison, Pedro) and most recently we made a signing that was a "high risk" gamble with a lot of money being paid, when no one else was prepared to do it (Sarr).

    We've also made signings, in getting established players who are just past their peak, maybe have a bit of an injury record, but have the pedigree and could do a job a little further down the league from the clubs their use to playing for. (Welbeck, Cleverley). Foster, Cathcart, Kiko, Masina, Mapps, Gomes, Doucoure, Capoue and Dawson have to be regarded as successful low budget signings.

    The only one we really got wrong was Gray. That was a spectacular fail, but the overall track record is pretty good I'd say. These players (until now) have got us promotion and have kept us in the Premier League.

    You can say we bulked at signing Ake, but at the time that was £20m. It would have been a huge purchase for us, and we were just not ready to do that sort of business. Bournemouth's owner have more money and were ahead of us at that moment in time.

    The domestic talent market is saturated. We cannot get a foothold in it, because we are not seen as an elite club. It's very hard for Watford to compete and get value for money. It's not really possible. All we'll end up with are players no one else wants. When we do get a good one, like Sancho, they are lured away for a pittance and the football authorities allow that to happen. This is why it's not worth investing money into a top rate academy. All we'll be doing is creating gems for the top clubs to take for next to nothing. Why would Watford do that?

    No, the path we tread is in obscure markets, far away places, or gambles on players no one else will take a gamble on, be it because the difficulty in dealing with clubs in South America, or the risk to reward is a little high for them, we are allowed to step in, get the player, then when he proves himself, other clubs will buy from us.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  29. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    You say the same thing over and over again. You are intolerant of anyone who is critical of the owners, and put in your sly digs at anyone who isn't on message. You then follow up with your repetitive signalling that you can't bear to go on a match thread after a defeat because people are idiots and not enlightened as you are. It's pointless having a conversation with you as I could type it all in advance.
     
  30. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I think being a small fish is relevant though as we can’t do what a lot of other teams do as we don’t have a billionaire owner. We can’t go and spend what we like. I would say Sarr was a big risk which looks like it was worth it but other big buys have not, Gray and Success for instance.
    In regard to a baying mob asking for Gino to leave, there is a large thread dedicated to this. I’m a big fan of Gino and what he’s done here in his tenure. I’ve said he, or part of his team, have made mistakes and I certainly agree that we needed defenders.
    If you go back to the Burnley thread and see the comments before the game So many saying that we should win this, look at the state of Burnley etc.
     
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  31. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I choose not to read the match thread because in my opinion there is a bit of over reaction especially immediately after the final whistle. I’m not intolerant of other people views, I don’t agree with some of them so reply with my own views. I think that’s what a forum is for
    I don’t put in sly digs against anybody and I certainly don’t describe anybody as idiots. I have the occasional dig at Nath because I think he’s overly negative!!
    I repeat things as I believe in them. You do exactly the same but your views are different to mine. Maybe you’re right that it’s time for Gino to go but I don’t think it is. My concern would be who would take over that’s better
    I say what I believe but I think I’m fairly polite in what I say so I think your post is a little bit out of order
     
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  32. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    You can say you are polite, but the conversation was quite civil before you started down your "spoiled brats" road and having your "rant". I find your passive aggressive virtuous posts deeply irritating. You think you are polite. Fair enough let's leave it there.
     
  33. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Here we go, someone else is 'tedious' or 'signalling'. Except Jumbo, who apparently doesn't like forum bullying, yet is on the attack all over the forum.
     
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  34. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Keep out of it politics drone.
     
  35. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    When you do likewise and stop being such a hypocrite, attacking other posters while claiming the moral high ground, I will.

    Your lectures about tone and views really grate when you don’t seem capable of following them yourself. If you believe he is wrong say so without personal attacks.
     

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