Stadium Expansion - Bushey Hall

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Stevohorn, Jul 13, 2019.

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For or against a new stadium at Bushey (see post #558)

  1. For

    102 vote(s)
    59.0%
  2. Against

    71 vote(s)
    41.0%
  1. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I wonder at what stage this at. Presumably, if pictures like this are being released there must have been some discussions around the proposal you would think
     
  2. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    You would expect heads of agreement on buying the land. At a minimum discussions with planning and highways authorities on the principle of the plan. At a minimum is the land zoning appropriate for the proposal, what supporting infrastructure needed. Discussion on mitigations. For example residents parking, support for bus services. Also parallel discussions on the redevelopment of Vicarage Road. Probably an in principle discussion on what activity other than football to operate. Concerts? Hotel? Conference centre? Park and ride?
     
  3. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    The team and coaches win matches not the stadium. But you can have both. Leicester City. New stadium promotion, Champions of England and on course for a second Champions League campaign. It is not the stadium that delivered that - it was the ambition of the owners who wanted a bigger better club in all respects.
     
  4. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    I've still not got over leaving Cassio Road. Why our owners left there I will never know - I still can't settle in VR.
    • People said they wanted more space, I'm sorry but we had plenty of space for 13k max fans there.
    • Others said it was facilities!?! Nothing wrong with ******* in a bucket if you ask me.
    • Others correctly pointed out we would slip out of the lowest football league and back into the non-league due to over extending ourselves.
    • Others wanted better grass than Cassio Park grass - I'm sorry it was nice grass. The grass isn't always greener.
    We need to batten the hatches and keep put. Without VR we are nothing.
     
  5. Johnny Todd Sings

    Johnny Todd Sings First Year Pro

    Pah! Things started to go downhill when we left the Rose and Crown Meadow. Bloody council and their urban development - no support for the football team.
     
    Davidmsawyer likes this.
  6. brinnyboy1985

    brinnyboy1985 First Year Pro

    People that say ‘build it and they will come’ I can’t see it.

    Playoff finals / FA Cup at Wembley shows we have a maximum fan base of about 32k. Anyone who wanted a ticket could get one, this included once a season day trippers.

    Stay put.
     
    R4E and Moosegasm like this.
  7. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Great post. :eek:

    Pick out a "failure" of a stadium and automatically assume that we will make all the same mistakes on the way to a similar failure on the pitch.
    :D
     
    Davidmsawyer likes this.
  8. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    A bucket to p*** in? You were lucky. When I were a young fan we used to dream of having a bucket to p*** in. We used to go ta field, cut t'grass with our teeth, paint white lines wi chalk we stole from school....
     
    poakley likes this.
  9. Customer base is not a fixed thing, otherwise no business on the planet could ever start up or grow.

    This won’t be just about capacity it will also be about expanding hospitality, clubs generate significant income from it.

    I think I’m right in saying we don’t even have room for a bar for away supporters under the VR because of the lack of room. Haven’t been under there since it was the home end.
     
  10. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    When the pozzos took over we were averaging 12500 as a mid table championship team, which is still above our historic level. In league 1 under GT I think we were getting less than ten thousand.
     
  11. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I quite often bring my son to games now who is on the season ticket waiting list but trying to get two seats together is quite difficult. Leicester for example is restricted view only which means staring at the wall from the front row of the Lower GT. I imagine this puts a lot of people off going. You would hope that a new ground would not have these kind of issues especially with a bigger capacity and will bring in more support. I want to see the club progress and I feel the only way we can do this is with a new ground and all the benefits it would bring
     
  12. Dennis_Booth

    Dennis_Booth Reservist

    Some will want to move some wont. I love my seating position and my matchday experience at the Vic ( I don't queue at the kiosk often though). It would be more difficult for me to get to the site of the new stadium but I would still vote for a move.

    We do need more seats to fit the season ticket waiting list in, the people who dont come because there are only single seats available, another 700 away fans, moving the 1881 to behind the goal without the present occupiers being disadvantaged.

    Our Sustainability will be improved, It wont be a soulless bowl because it wont be that big. At 30 - 35k capacity it wont need to have the problems of the emirates. Spurs stadium is vastly superior. from a spectator point of view. compared to Arsenals. Maybe it will help keep our entrance and ST prices low.

    It's for us to embrace the change and make it work ( If it ever happens).
     
  13. 3000

    3000 Reservist

    I was thinking the exact same, we are just not a big club and never will be. Furthermore we would never be able to replicate the acoustics of the rookery.

    Additional revenue from this would equate to a few extra million a year, which would quickly be pocketed by overinflated contracts and dodgy backhanders in Italy.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that at some point we will be relegated. I said this long before this season even occurred, we will always be at risk of going down and it is going to happen eventually so playing Championship football in front of 13k in a 30,000 is going to be painful to see.
     
    Moosegasm likes this.
  14. scummybear

    scummybear Reservist

    The running and maintenance costs of a new stadium would most likely be significantly lower than VR. It'd be more energy efficient, allow us to introduce more green initiatives like water retention etc, as we saw earlier this season we're currently the worst in the league in that regard.

    Also I seem to recall an article before saying all the expansion work we were looking at for VR was £40m ish, and that's just for 6,000 odd extra seats.

    Adjusted for inflation, the King Power and St Mary's cost around £50m, so you can see why it's being considered.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
     
  15. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    The soulless passion free arena atmosphere at the Emirates hasn't helped, stripped the club of a lot of its culture and priced out less affluent fans. We should follow the Liverpool model: stay in your traditional home, upgrade the stadium over time to suit your needs and make sure you enhance the atmosphere (basically what we've been doing very successfully so far). Liverpool's new design for developing the Anfield road end has way less corporate facilities than they could have had. It's safeguarding the culture and identity of the club. More than anything its a gift from the owners to the fans to show them how much they are valued and how important they are to the club.
    They know Anfield is worth an extra goal in most Champions league ties and they want to enhance not destroy that. West Ham is the worst case scenario, would Liverpool have beaten Barca 4-0 at the London stadium even if it was full of Liverpool fans? No chance. Would we have beaten Liverpool 3-0 last week in a Mickey Mouse arena? less likely. We have a real football stadium, full of fairly average everyday fans. In this era of sanitization and commercialization of football what we have is something to cherish. Apart from their centre back phobia the Pozzos have done a great job but they have (understandably - no criticism intended here) misunderstood our brand. Our strength and identity is as an underdog, punching above our weight, small town community club with an authentic stadium. A friendly club that is more opposed to bigotry than most. We should be selling our authenticity not trying to be a 3rd rate Leicester. Leicester are only where they are cos they have a world class striker who wants to stay at the club and they made good investments in Maguire and Morrison. Leicester will go t1t$ up within 5 - 10 years. We need to safeguard our identity for the next 139 years not jeopardise it on a wing and a prayer. If we wanna make more money I'd rather we lobby the FA to play our Man United Liverpool and Chelsea games at Wembley rather than build a new stadium.. If we wanna build our fan base we would need to build a new stadium closer to north west London not in the great metropolis of Bushey, but that could kill the club's identity. Much better to stay where we are and develop the club's identity in a way that matches our culture. I was at the Red Bull Culture Clash in Kingston Jamaica a few months ago and it pitted a bunch of over hyped millenial upstarts against the timeless authenticity of Spragga Benz and his crew. The younger crew were all about gimmicks and hype, showering the audience with dollar bills, waving flags a la cup final. Spragga and his crew were all about real authentic jamaican dancehall culture. As Spragga said during the clash: 'We're not doing it for the hype, we're doing it for the culture'. They won it too. Our club doesnt need rebranding we need to enhance what we already have. This is a great club with a lot of real authentic culture surrounding it. Ultimately football is about culture. Every time we go to the stadium, that is our culture. We should be proud of it, embrace it and protect it. As a club our biggest strength is our authenticity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  16. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Thank ****, some sense at last. Bl**dy well said.
     
  17. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I was a season ticket holder for many years, but gave it up a few years back as I was going through a rocky financial patch, but now that I can afford to get one again, there are just not enough available. So I for one would be pleased if our capacity was increased, then hopefully I could get a ST again, plus I would also like to get ST's for my two young grandsons in the near future, but that too is not possible right now.

    We need to expand as our profile is getting higher which hopefully will lead to a growth in our fan base, which I believe is happening already, and as The Vic is not even able to accommodate our current fan base it will not be able to accommodate our new recruits either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  18. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Which is all fine - until you think about the cost of Liverpool's main stand expansion. It cost £110m and added 8,500 seats. Now even if you reasonably assume they gold-plated everything in sight and set an ambitious timescale to do the work in, it still serves as a warning about the affordability/economies involved in staying put. Plus Liverpool's 'model' took a long time coming, what with them completely gutting the local community to buy the land needed for their plans.

    If there was an easy way to add 5,000-8,000 seats to the Vic - which would probably be enough to tide us over for now - I imagine by now Pozzo and Duxbury would have identified it. I suspect we're very close now with the SE corner plans to reaching the end of the line for filling every existing space. Anything else is going to require massive and probably disproportionate expense compared to the gain in bums on seats.

    It's no wonder the owners are at least considering moving. The Rookery's probably the best stand and, if the new SE corner has a bar accessible to all as rumoured that'll sort out some of the concourse overcrowding there. The Upper GT is fine too (although capacity for normies has reduced as corporate facilities have expanded). The Lower GT is a joke - the rake of the stand is awful and it has a concourse for only half its length. The Vic Rd End is a joke too. I'm not going to cry about away fans' facilities but they're clearly poor. And obviously what they have is replicated in the home half of that stand too. And the SEJ stand bless it is an admirable improvement on the wreck there before but not much else. Cobbling more seats onto that is probably the cheapest option.

    Then there's the intangible things like the politics between fans which means people won't move from where they've always sat to facilitate a better experience for the majority. Or the fact the club gets bashed in the media every year for not having the right amount of disabled facilities, despite the club's clear family ethos and other work in that area. And the fact that, as @Knight GT said, there always appears to be spare seats on a match day but that's because there's loads of odd seats in woeful positions that would inspire only the most committed to return for another match. A fresh start would wipe away all of that stuff too.
     
  19. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    I'll consider it. Might be a stag-geringly successful design.
     
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    What I don't get is why are people so adverse to change? Why are they automatically thinking it's going to be a soulless bowl?

    Vicarage Road, until the Pozzo's came, was an embarrassment. A three-sided ground with no atmosphere at all. It's only because of what our owners have done, that it feels half decent. Surely fans trust the judgement of our owners by now? Look at what they built for Udinese. Look at how they've improved Vicarage Road.

    I get nostalgia and wanting to retain those memories. I too would be very sad if/when the day the last match ever to be played at Vicarage Road came, but times move on.

    I agree we wouldn't want a converted Olympic stadium, like West Ham, but we would not be getting that. We'd be getting a bespoke, designed specifically for Watford Football Club, modern stadium, that caters for the needs of an ambitious club on an upward trajectory. You can't kid people. Look at Bournemouth. They are seen as Premier League gate-crashers, who will go down eventually. That perception is vastly inflated because of their small stadium. Had they built a ground like Brighton, then I'd say they are a good fit for the Premier League. Not a traditional club, but one that fits it's surroundings. Watford needs to be this type of club. We're never going to be a super-power, or a big city side. But we can be the best small town club in England. Why not?

    You have to have vision to progress. Building a new stadium doesn't mean traditions and values are destroyed. It could mean the exact opposite. The future for Watford has to be protected and this could inject new life and vibrancy into the club. Don't get me wrong, if their was the room at Vicarage Road to expand correctly, then I'd be all in favour for staying OR if the relocation was going to be miles away I wouldn't be so keen to move, but that doesn't apply here.

    Fans should not fear change, because it's all for the betterment of the club. Trust the owners to do what is right for our club. If they decided to do this, then everyone has to be on board. They will factor in all the numbers, and if it's viable and will enhance not only matchday revenue to help the club sustain it's stature and enhance the club's reputation, then it can only be a good thing.
     
  21. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Culture?
    Personally, as someone whose grandfather played there, whose father was on the books and who was born in Liverpool Road behind the Main Stand, and who used to walk around the dog track at the Vic during games when he was a small lad in the 60's, and who has seen the stadium become quite a nice little stadium in recent years, I still don't really accept that it has a "culture" worth clinging on to at Vicarage Road.

    The family atmosphere that GT and EJ developed has been the forerunner to what we have now, and it whilst it should be cherished for what it achieved, it has now effectively gone. They represented the best WFC moments in my life, and so there is a degree of sadness. Had we gone back down to the lowest tier, retained our moth eaten ground and continually skirted with going bust, "knuckling down together" as we hurdled each potential crisis, then maybe we would have retained our "family club" culture. But we didn't, and I'm certainly pleased we have escaped the lower leagues. The game has changed whether we like it or not. There is also a good chance that the TV money will not always be there in the same magnitude in a decade, and there will be more reliance on our ground and our facilities. I sincerely believe that, we have absolutely more potential to grow than any other club in the land. What other club has a location like Watford when it comes to access to such a huge catchment area, on the edge of London that is like a magnet to the best players in the world (who don't know any better).

    BTW, I think you are wrong about Leicester, they won't go **** up, they are a well run club and pretty sustainable, with a really good culture. But a club like Bournemouth could do. They are standing still, trying to maintain their culture, their identity with their poxy little ground.

    We can do better than them, and we can do better than Leicester too, located where we are with our nearest rivals being Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, QPR, West Ham and Luton, all of whom have little opportunity to grow at all from where they are right now, we can build on what we have. I reckon that if someone looked at the whole country to start a football club with a view to picking the spot with the most potential taking everything into consideration, he would end up at Bushey, and I said that when we were looking at a spot a few years ago just off the A41.

    We have generally quiet fans, and I totally agree we must not contemplate a wide open space ground like the Arsenal's or West Ham's. But we can have a new compact, more enclosed ground, that holds 35k to 40k with better facilities and great transport links. We just have to ensure it is done in a financially sustainable way, and that is easier said than done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  22. Eastcoastorn

    Eastcoastorn First Year Pro

    Yes agree with zz and hb1. Why are so many afraid of ambition? I guess that’s why we had none for the first 80years or so of our downtrodden history.
     
  23. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Everyone seems to be assuming we'll keep the fanbase when we slip into the Championship again, (and we will). Attendances will drop like a stone and club will be begging us to buy season tickets. As it is it's a miracle that we get such attendances with a town holding only about 95,000 people. We couldn't even sell our Wembley allocation of 38,000 odd for a playoff final or an FA Cup Semi Final so why would we build a 40,000 seater?

    For me the history is what makes football so special. When I go to the new stadiums I just don't feel right. Yes Palaces ground is an utter sh*thole but it a football ground not another soul-less experience. There's something about walking up to a football ground that gives you that buzz and I simply don't get that at any of the newer places.

    The Vic is currently spot on, the work done there is amazing. Moving to a bowl in Bushey would be a massive mistake.
     
  24. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Im quite surprised by some of the positivity about moving but people have given some valid perspectives. I'd hope if we built a new stadium it would have a single tier home end all safe standing. A double tier home end would set back some of the achievements of the 1881.
     
  25. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    The reason I’m positive is because of the people involved in the project.

    When it comes to the stadium, everything the Pozzo’s have done is with sensitivity and a firm nod to the past. They are very aware of this and they they hold traditional values in high regard. That’s not just talk, we’ve seen this with our own eyes with all the development at Vicarage Road.

    Why would that change? It’s their nature to improve and to innovate but they do it with fans first and foremost.

    We’re still in the early stages and nothing has been decided. This is all exploratory.

    I guess it all comes down to trust. I think if they do this it will be special and uniquely Watford.
     
  26. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    It's definitely got to be in proportion. Building a 40k stadium would be ridiculous and I hope that's not the plan. And you're bob on - we will be back in the Championship again and attendances will drop.

    I'd always hoped we could just replace and upgrade the stands as we went and stay at the Vic, but that's looking increasingly difficult now.

    Even your example Palace have grand plans to rebuild half their ground:

    https://stadium.cpfc.co.uk/

    They're fortunate as they have access to land on one side which, subject to Sainsbury's selling up, means they have room to expand. Even then though the cost is £75m-£100m and at the end they'll have 8,000 more seats. It's obvious why Pozzo is thinking of moving.
     
    Muggins_77 and wfc4ever like this.
  27. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    If you go back less than 30 years, the only part of the ground that remains the same is the upper GT. The lower GT and the rest of the ground have been completely rebuilt.

    Even the upper GT only came in during the 80s.
     
  28. stevodavo96

    stevodavo96 Academy Graduate

    I think the new stadium would be a good thing for many reasons. Location is good, not completely out of town, and it means we can continue to grow as a club, increase revenue and attract better players.

    It just needs to be build in the right way, with football in mind, with 100% focus on generating an atmosphere and 100% for Watford FC only. Lets agree that most modern "bowl" stadiums and pretty naff, so i think we need to base our new stadium on a smaller version of Dortmunds Westfalenstadion, which i think must be....

    * a 4 sided stadium (not a bowl)
    * steep stands, as close to the pitch as possible (some new stadiums still have a big gap between front row and pitch, why!?)
    * corners can be for various hospitality / functions / events etc
    * one large single tier behind goal for the new Rookery - our own "yellow wall"
    * still have a row of executive boxes in middle and back of 2 tiered main stand
    * keep the stand names - Sir Elton John / Graham Taylor / Rookery etc

    This can be done without selling our sole and maintaining our identity and history - an updated new Vic if you like! - a nice, tight and compact stadium, that opposition teams find hard to come to.

    I wonder if us fans can have any input in the design process?? this could be a great opportunity...
     
  29. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    New catering option?

    [​IMG]
     
    La_tempesta_cielo_68 likes this.
  30. I disagree - as a club we should know our plaice.
     
  31. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I agree, no use carping on about it. Cod we at least agree on that ?
     
  32. FromDiv4

    FromDiv4 Reservist

    Slightly off topic but I do not see safe standing as the answer to a good singing section. Safe standing is a step towards it, but the area also needs to be unreserved “seating”. In the old days of terracing it was the fact that people had free movement of where to stand that allowed the singing people to all collect in one section.
     
  33. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Fields wi grass you say.
    You middle class chancer.
     
  34. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I agree with you, but a return to unreserved seating would be a big culture change for the modern fan. It's over 20 years since we've had it and even back then, in the days of 8,000 home crowds, you had be in place an hour before kick-off to sit in the area you wanted. Further back, when there was terracing, you could always push your way through to stand with your mates. Nowadays the stands only really fill up in the last 15 minutes.
     
  35. 3000

    3000 Reservist

    Best post on this thread so far.

    I went to Brighton the other week and hated every second of it. Middle of nowhere, everything was so purpose built, airport style security, 0 character, 0 atmosphere, no identity and leather padded seats. Plus you have to get a train from the city centre. I would despise Watford moving to something like that.
     

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