FA Cup Final - Manchester City 6-0 Watford FC - 18/05/2019 Match Thread

Can we finally put to bed this myth that Javi Gracia is a specialist in masterminding upsets against the big clubs?

A particularly horrible stat I read says we've lost the last 11 matches v Man City, letting in 38 goals along the way.

 

Deeney's leadership was on full display yesterday, for sure.

He's had a good season by his standards, but "excellent" is really stretching it. He's clearly amongst our worst few regular starters, and his fitness has seemed to fade badly again at the end of the season. You're being harsh on Gray as well, who looks better than Deeney whenever the two are on the pitch together, and scores at a better rate - the main difference is our current tactics are set up in part to play to Deeney's "strengths"; when using Gray instead it would require a slightly different, less direct set-up.

As for leaders, I think we still have a few even without Deeney - Foster, Capoue, Cathcart, Doucoure, Holebas, are all feasbile captain material.

 

This isn't me taking sides, but it's no surprise you're so opposed to a moany fan such as Nath, when you're the type who says "we'll go again" in an unironic fashion.

 

Well you can't argue with his record for Malaga to be fair. Not an expert on them, I'm aware he was in charge under very uncompromising circumstances, but I can only guess they had a far better back line. We can get by against similar teams with a dodgy defence, but certainly not against the bigger teams

 

I had a fantastic day, other than the reason I was actually there. Embarrassing state of affairs.

 

I don't know what game you watched yesterday, but we didn't try to play "the right way", and we certainly weren't "too opimistic" - despite all the bluster we heard from the likes of Deeney, the fact was, they were scared stiff. They may have said that they could win, but they didn't really think that and they didn't play like it. From kick off, they were trotting about in midfield and up front, like they were playing a training game. City had so much time and space they must have thought it was Christmas. We were sitting back. Playing to keep the score down is not playing to win, and it was clear that City wanted to win more. I said so after about 10 minutes, I was really angry with how we were playing. We are not good enough at the back to try and "hang on" for 60 minutes against the best. If we are to get results, we have to try and win the bloody game, not "hang on". We don't want to approach every game like the defence of Rorkes Drift! It is eleven against eleven out there, not 250 against 4,000!

The fact that we had the best chance early on, and missed it, doesn't hide the fact that we were playing to try and keep their score down, rather than playing to win the game.

That game was not lost yesterday, it was lost in their negative mindset that has built up over the past few weeks. Even on here, the best WFC "supporters" forum (and heaven help us if our players actually follow this forum), probably 90% of the posts were about how many we would lose by. I reckon that much of that pessimism was honest and heartfelt and a case of preparing themselves for handling the impending failure. Why are people so afraid of being seen to fail?

Those players tried yesterday, but they were not trying for a positive result, they were trying to reduce the negativity of the result. That can be just as tiring, and just as shattering. Their belief was barely there to start with and was totally destroyed after the second goal. People don't understand the power of the mind in a sport like football, and how believing something positive "will" happen against the odds is so much better than believing something positive "can happen. The difference between the two is crucial and can only happen in a football team, with a positive culture in the club and their fans. It is clear we have neither.

After following the team all over the country since the sixties (apart from when I worked overseas), I can rarely get to games these days due to personal circumstances and although I had a ticket for yesterday I had given it away. So I had to suffer the shoutbox again if I was to get any sort of collective experience of the Cup Final. Jesus Christ, what a god-awful place that is. I once had a season ticket sitting next to people with similar bleating, moaning, negatively boring "supporters" that after most games I found myself looking for a number 321 bus I could walk under. Yes, their negativity would sometimes be proved right, and didn't they let you know, with a gleeful, delightful, "I told you so!". The shoutbox is a wretched place to be unless we are winning, when those moaners then usually decide to disappear rather than actually be complimentary. I think some people only follow Watford as it gives them ample opportunity to be their normal, miserable, selves.

The problem is, such negativity is infectious. So whilst many on here are concerned about the embarrassment of losing so heavily, I am far more concerned about how this result gives those bleating, moaning, negatively boring "supporters" some sort of "justification" to continue with their nauseating misery at every opportunity.

I believe we are good enough, ability wise, to do well very in this league, particularly if we get a goalscorer that can actually score goals, so I am not downhearted. One game against one of the best teams in the world that cost about a £billion, doesn't change that. But we really do need to work on getting the right positive mindset in our players heads. I reckon we played at our full potential maybe 2 or 3 times last season, there is so much more those players can give if they were playing in a more positive environment.

Come on Pozzo/Duxbury, get someone in, alongside our coach, that can get our players believing they can win!

 

In the cold light of day, have I woken up today feeling embarrassed by yesterday? Yes.

Do I wish we’d have lost the semi-final to save us from yesterday's humiliation? No way. The thrill after beating Wolves and the pure happiness over the past five weeks of waking up every day knowing we had a Cup Final to look forward to was worth way more than losing so heavily yesterday.

Has yesterday and the drop off in league form changed my view of this being a good season? It shouldn’t do but it’s hard not to let it. All teams of our standing will have bad runs in the course of a PL season. Ours came right at the end (as it always seems to do) including the biggest match of all, so its impossible not to go into summer feeling a sense of disappointment.

Does the squad need an overhaul? Yes definitely. Defence, attack and maybe looking at whether we need or want too many luxury players like Pereyra who are ‘on their day’ types. One of RP/GD sure, but both together?

Is Gracia the best? No, he’s done exceptional well and priced me wrong, he’s definitely above-average, but I don’t think yes exactly the messiah some believe. He has limitations.

How do I sum up my feelings today? Very disappointed and embarrassed about yesterday, and frustrated to only come 11th when more seemed likely, but equally glad we’ve still had a season packed full of so many highlights. Happy we now look an established PL side capable of getting into finals and keeping out of trouble in the league. Happy knowing we have a half decent squad but equally anxious that we won’t seek to improve it but will rest on our laurels.

Yesterday could just be a turning point rather than a means to an end, and it will be interesting to see which way our club goes from here.

 

Humiliating.

 

The game I saw had a Watford team comfortable on the ball, playing good football and finding space at times in man city's lines, and winning the ball often in midfield. And lost heavily for doing so, as usual. We were not parking the bus at all, we had pretty much our most attacking lineup possible out there!

It makes zero sense to say we are not good enough to park the bus. That is exactly what underdogs do when they arent good enough to go toe to toe for 90 minutes. We are not good enough to spend 90 minutes trying to outplay Manchester city's team of global superstars in a game they will actually be motivated to win. We needed to limit their space, time waste, hope for the best and get to the latter part of the game without conceding, not leave giant gaps for them to exploit with their clinical strikers by lining up in exactly the same fashion we would against Cardiff or wolves.

We paid the price for trying to attack early by conceding early against a team it would be nigh on impossible to score against once the first goal was conceded. Imo, javi has done this against the top 6 every time, and that is why our record against them is so dire. Other teams have gone somewhere, put 10 men behind the ball and then stolen points late on - we haven't ever done that.

 

Whilst I'm in rant mode, why do the TV reporters and pundits keep mentioning that it is only our 2nd FA Cup Final? Most of the League teams have never been in one FA Cup Final, 32 have more appearances and only 10 of those now have more final appearances than us and are currently above us in the league. And both our appearances have been in the modern(ish) era.

We have done well, and even equalled a long standing record along the way!

 

Has he though?

He's a #9, his job is very simple: score goals and make goals. 9 league goals, 5 assists. #33 and #35 on the premier league tables. Hardly excellent.

I'm not bashing him, too many discussions on here end up in polarised positions when the reality is something in the middle.

He's the best we have, he's okay. But that isn't a reason not to do something. Whilst he's the untouchable play every game captain I don't see how we will ever develop.

 

Totally fed up with football at the moment. The result was exactly what I feared but desperately hoped against. We simply do not know how to play against teams in the top six and I have no idea why. Other teams only slightly better or worse than us seem able to put up decent performances and certainly avoid humilitation. The mindset of our players was clearly wrong - we expected to lose and hoped it would not be a cricket score.
So now we have two unenviable records - the fastest premier league goal against us and the biggest ever Wembleu defeat and the worst cup final in over 100 years.
Beating Wolves was the worst thing we did - but would I swap it - actually no.

 

We were reasonable on the ball for spells, and I have not said that we were being negative when in possession. The negativity came in when City had possession, for 80 minutes we sat back, little pressing, it was like they felt it was just inevitable that we could only score on a break.

Tell me, how many times have lesser teams sneaked a win against City by sitting back, soaking up the pressure for 60 minutes?

 

Well it’s a team game. They have Doucoure and Capoue shielding them. If you look at our 5 man CB roster I think you’d struggle to find a worse collection on paper in the top flight. 20 is an exaggeration but certainly bottom 3.

 

Newcastle did I think. They conceded after 1 minute and still went ultra defensive before winning 2-1.

 

They are woeful. Worst set of CBs in the division imo.

Cathcart is the best of a bad lot. Is Prodl even alive? Britos is gone this summer. Mapps is a tryer but is totally out of his depth. Kabasele makes stupid errors. And the one young CB the club did bring in Gracia decided to turn him into a midfielder.

I'd rather we'd spent this season 3 at the back with full backs each side of Cathcart to make a 3.

 

Had been thinking all evening how to post my feelings about yesterday and the season in general.

But you’ve said everything that I wanted to far better than I would have.

 

Hmm. You have a point.
However, I'm not at all sure a queue of clubs will be coming in for Doucoure.

 

Yep, disappointing end to the season, but we can't just look at the end result, we have to look at how we got there, and our exploits this season have been far more enjoyable than 11th place would suggest. In a way, I'm glad we didn't come oh so close to 7th as then there really would have been some regrets about the season, but ultimately we can look back on it and enjoy it!
If there's any positives to come out of this season in general and yesterday in particular, it's that we do have plenty of talent, it's just that we have some extremely glaring weaknesses that I'm sure can easily be plugged. Obviously we all know the Pozzos won't splurge, but I don't think they'll rest on their laurels neither, I trust them to strengthen the squad enough so that we can deal with whatever difficulties the next year throws up!

 

This scenario reminds me of when Apollo stepped in as mind guru when Rocky was afraid of Clubber Lang in Rocky III.

 

Here we go again. Buried in your summary is another dig at Gracia. I wondered why you started posting again. It coincided with our end of season dip. Your views on him have clearly not changed but you only now feel you have a voice because of the bad run. Just waiting for an“ I told you so” now.

 

Femenia really isn't a defender unfortunately.

Midfield or not playing next season please.

 

Where would he be on a combined list with 14 goals and assists? I would certainly like some competition for him (at the very least so we're not ****ed when he's injured/suspended), but at the end of the day, he's still crucial to how we play (would be nice if we could play a way to get the best out of Gray when Deeney isn't playing but that just doesn't seem possible) and has been the one constant in the team throughout all the ups and downs of the past decade or so. I was tentatively in the 'put Walsall out of their misery' camp last season, but certainly not anymore

 

We have done very very well but, quite a few of our players were free transfers, and yet we are in the Permier League, without being too harsh they were free for a reason, we need to continue to consolidate and spend some money!

 

Liked, apart from your bonkers last idea. No way Cathcart can be the only centre back in a three.

 

You basically summed up my rant in far more measured and eloquent words. Everything you've said is bang on the money. Excellent summary.

 

Janmaat-Cathcart-Masina with Femenia-Holebas as wing backs would have put up a better showing yesterday. Bin off Pereyra. 3 in the middle. 2 up top.

 

There is no doubt this season was an improvement on last year. We cam every near to achieving 7th place - and should have - but even so got 50 points for the first time in the Prem and improved our position by three places - as well as getting to the cup final. If it weren't for the fact that the record loss will keep being dredged up for years we would always look back n this season as a success - even with 11th.
Gracia has done a pretty good job and anyone who thinks of changing him must have a very good idea of the saint who would come in for the money we pay and the squad we can afford and the support we have and do better. Had we finished 7th and lost 2-1 in the final there would be a real chance that another club would look to poach him.
If the Pozzos want the same again or better they will need to spend some money as the team is getting old and tired. We will see how it goes over the summer.

 

City's football at times was breathtaking is was not long ago they hit Chelsea for 6 i would rather play our way and give it a go than the Burnley way.
From my seat the we out song City they only made a noise for a few mins after each goal

Boxpark was great with the ex players joining in Luther LD Jay and helgerson

 

**** me mate, if a record FA Cup defeat is not something fans can get a bit angry at then what is?

Wish I cared as little as you.

 

We didn't do anything different in the 2nd half. We played the same way..
I accept that we were never going to win, but the effort by the players was terrible. We were a joke and the players/manager must know that's how a lot of fans feel.
City didn't play that well. We handed them the game with our negative tactics.
This is a watershed moment. It is not about City winning 6 -0, but how our players performed. A clear out is needed. The players should wake up this morning and apologise to the fans.
The fans never gave up singing, for a change, unlike the players who gave up from the start.
It is only football. I was a fan before this game and l will be a fan after. I support the club not the players.
Gomes, Mariappa, Cathcart, Holebas, Doucoure, Deulofeu(done deal already) Pereyra, let's throw in Deeney as well. Your time is at an end at Vicarage Road.

 

How embarrassing that you spend a month butt hurt and wearing a wrestling mask whilst w*nking off at the thought of being able to post on here.

What a sad life you must lead.