Can the Current Pozzo Model Work in Practice?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by KelsoOrn, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    The thread title refers only to the playing side of things. Everything else works exceptionally well.

    The model, with its four chief participants, has been sold to us as a sensible division of labour given the complexities of running a Premier League football club. Knowledge of the playing side and recruitment shouldn't reside in the hands of just one man because, if and when he goes, the club will be left up a creek without a paddle. The Clarets and Muff might be doing well under their one man bands at the moment but where will they be when that one man goes as he surely will at some point? So the division of labour seems eminently sensible to me.

    However, it isn't just a game of chess. There's physcology involved here too. Our successive head coaches will have been told about the 'Pozzo model' at interview. They'll have bought into that despite their impressive c.v.'s and pedigrees most of which will have included a greater degree of autonomy. Maybe they'll even have welcomed that and the opportunity to concentrate entirely on coaching, on-field matters and with an input into recruitment.

    Then they find something different. Not only are they, as expected, a smaller cog in the wheel than they're used to but, beyond that, they then realise they're an almost completely insignificant bit-part player in the great scheme of things and I'd suggest that will piss them off mightily. It would me, if I had their credentials.

    It's almost like the UN Security Council with three permanent members and one elected member. That elected member will inevitably feel very 'junior' given the security of tenure of the other three.

    So, in the first instance, I'd suggest 'tweaking' the model to give the head-coach a bit more autonomy and say so. Not wholesale change mind. Just a tweak.

    Then, who are the principal players here? Gino. Likes to stay in the background. Fair enough. Except at the training ground. More on that later. Scott. Chief Exec. Designated 'face of the club'. Does a brilliant job and 'no case to answer' i.m.h.o. Mr Giraldi. Who the f.ck is he apart from Gino's mate? What do we know about him? Anonymous. And then A.N.Other head coach.

    I suspect there's a continuing problem between Mr Giraldi and A.N.Other. Famously, Joe Kinnear (Head Coach) and Dennis Wise (Director of Football) didn't talk to each other at the Geordie place for two months. So what's going on at our place?

    We've now lost the Joka (greedy -******** - Quique was lined up already)


    Quique (party boy turns out to be party boy - surprise)

    Walter (Likes a fag, can't speak the lingo and gives up)

    Marco (see's the light and gets his head turned - bit of bottle, sexy football and a NO man. Loved him in his brief tenure. And I do love a NO man. And I loved Marco and his brand of football too. Call him a snake if you like. But I'd still call him a realist. And I'd love another strutty bloke who could deliver our early season form again.

    I've got increasingly pissed off now with Gino's et al endless excuses that it's always the other guys fault. ********.

    Now we have, as others have suggested elsewhere, hired a YES man. Make you happy Gino?

    So, recipes for change:

    1. Tweak your model to give the current head coach more autonomy and say so.

    2. Move a bit of power away from Mr Giraldi.

    3. Quit blaming the incumbent head coach for every demise.

    4. Quit hanging out at London Colney and getting in the team's face.

    That's it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  2. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    Interesting post worthy of discussion but the slights towards Gino at the end were a bit surprising. Is there evidence to back any of it up? Maybe there is, I don't remember hearing those claims before.
     
  3. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    It will be interesting to see what happens when Dyche and Howe leave their respective clubs. Then we will have a clearer idea (stating the obvious).
     
  4. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    I'd say Silva's situation summed up the pros and cons with Gino's approach.

    On one hand it was proven correct. Silva got too big for his boots, and his head was turned. If we'd had given him a 5 year deal and control over who came in, then we'd be stuck with his snake like legacy for years to come. As it turned out we could happily release him without too many issues, and luckily Carrillo wasn't a permanent signing.

    On the other hand, I feel part of the reason Silva wanted to go was because of how little control he had, which i feel was even less than he agreed to. His comments at the end of the summer transfer window makes me think he was promised a lot more than he got.

    Personally I think it was proved right in Silva's situation, but it does show that by not adequately backing whoever is brought in you are making the coaches job more difficult. My worry is we will continue to attract the journeyman coaches as a result, because the more promising ones won't want their reputations ruined by poor recruitment.
     
  5. PotGuy

    PotGuy Forum Fetishist

    I don't get the sympathy for incoming managers

    They know what the system is when they sign, it isn't a surprise! They signed up for it! If you don't want to play with others in the transfer market then don't agree to become our head coach.

    The major problem with our model, for me, is that it hasn't been able to breed commitment from any staff, playing or management. Players regress because they quickly realise everyone is here for the short term, their team mates, coaches and managers still probably be gone at the end of the season, or they will

    That is fine if you are Man City, but we aren't. There is no additional benefit to playing for us, no European football, no medals, no extravagant wages (relatively).

    It is fine to have a turnover of players for profit, but use the club as a vehicle for that, not the first team. Commit to a head coach with an actual three year deal, convince people that if they work hard there will be success, not a fire sale.
     
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  6. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    This is true, however I do think in Silva's case promises weren't delivered on. Lets face it we spent the whole summer looking for a new left back, Gibbs and Robertson both heavily linked, then we end up spending £2m on the worst left back since Paul Mayo
     
  7. Hornet4ever

    Hornet4ever WFC Forums Last Man Standing Winner 2018/2019

    At a macro level, If Gino keeps delivering premiership football to us season after season, I can't really see how we could justifiably criticise the model? Although at micro level we have every right to analyse & criticise the players/manager/tactics etc - which we do anyway.

    They had a 5 year plan to get us out of the Champ & they delivered on that early.

    In the 3 seasons the model has kept us up, with never any 'real' threat of relegation. We are not a club that is entitled to be challenging for Europe, although it would be something to aim for in the next 2-3 seasons.

    If anyone honestly expects more than what they have delivered so far, then I would say it's not realism & expectation set too high/too soon.
     
  8. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Is it unrealistic to expect progression, though, rather than getting a lower points total each season?
     
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  9. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Isn't the aim to keep us in the PL and make some £££?
     
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  10. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I don't think it's unrealistic to hope for progress but I don't think we should expect it as a right. Just about everyone outside the club believe we are overachieving as it is. Staying in the the EPL is a massive achievement in itself.

    Personally I can see us pushing for a Euro spot in the future but progress from here is not going to be linear. Survival in the EPL has to be considered a successful season. Anything beyond that will be a bonus.

    It's difficult as a supporter but we have to be realistic. I would love a season back in the Championship if we could guarantee a promotion season. Winning more than we lose would be a nice change. But we could end up like Sunderland.

    For me the Pozzo model is working as well as we could realistically hope.
     
  11. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    I'd have thought this would be a decent thing - it gives the club a sense of continuity despite the head coaches shifting around, and also the players a sense if there being consequences if they slack off with them also being under threat of the chop regardless of who is the coach.
     
  12. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    How anyone could criticise Gino Pozzo now is beyond belief.

    However, in the spirit of debate, let’s look into this.

    We’ve transformed from a struggling Championship side into a struggling Premier league side.

    Even though we are still struggling, that’s still progress, as we are struggling at a higher level. The difference between the Premier league and Championship is massive.

    Does there need to be some change in approach? I would say yes, but I would never criticise Gino. It’s like smacking your kid for spilling the milk. It’s not something you should ever do. You have to show tolerance and understanding and hope they learn from the experience.

    After all, it’s Gino’s money. He’s the one who hurts the most if he gets it wrong.

    I always try to put myself in his position and say honestly, if I was Watford’s owner, what would I do.

    I think it’s easy to judge someone when it’s not your money we’re talking about.

    Ok, I do think he has a blind spot when it comes to hiring coaches, but somehow it does seem to work, but only in the extreme short term. Duxbury mentioned a 2 year self-life but we’ve never even got close to that length of time.

    I do think they’ve under invested in the defence as well, but most of the investment this season went on the midfield and that was money well spent.

    Clearly an error was made with the size of investment on Gray, and that must really hurt with the amount of money wasted on him.

    Are things going as well as planned? No, obsolutely not. The last two seasons have been a disaster in terms of progress on the pitch, but we’ve been sparred the ultimate downfall.......relegation.

    For me, it’s very clear, we cannot afford another season like this one. It’s a big turn off to everyone that follows the club.

    The last two campaigns have been dreadful to follow. There have been far too many frustrations.

    But, even in all of this, I see big signs of potential progress. We have a lot of good players at the club. We have something tangible to build on.

    Get everyone fit and invest in 3 or 4 key signings in the summer and there could be a
    real transformation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  13. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    We're a struggling PL side that actually hasn't once been in the bottom 3 at any point during our three seasons back ;)

    (with apologies if I've now tempted fate!)
     
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  14. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    why would they need to change one single thing when every year we've stayed up without once being close to relegation, with a (relatively) small wage bill and net spend on players, and have created a couple of players that are being bandied about as worth £40m who cost buttons?

    Isnt this proof the system is working perfectly?
     
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  15. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    We wanted to be a Stoke, or a West Brom 5 years ago, and now we are. This is just what it’s like. Successive drubbings against the big clubs, **** performances, the odd cup run, stretches of games without creating chances, a bit of good form here and there, the occasional win over Arsenal/Chelsea/United. That’s the reality for every single lower-mid table club in the division.
     
  16. Vicarage Road

    Vicarage Road Reservist

    The sooner Deeney is out of the club, the better. I have a hunch, a percentage of the current squad feel intimidated by him. He’s not a good leader, behind closed doors, he’s probably like the playground bully. He’s disruptive, talks boll0k5 and plays shyte
     
  17. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    You can't say that!
    You're a fan and know nothing.
    Seriously though if I were Troy I would just try and keep my head down and improve my own play but he can't help himself it appears.
     
  18. The uninformed

    The uninformed Academy Graduate

    Much as I instinctively want to dislike this post, I can't. It's spot on. I keep having to remind myself that, as a fan of this club, I've never had it so good. Even so, surely something isn't right if I have to remind myself?...

    In some ways, my happiest season as a watford fan were those dark days of the mid-90s.
     
  19. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Was going to post exactly the same thing. Not a single weekend in the bottom 3 in 3 seasons is absolutely amazing.
    But every year will be a battle to stay in this league and at some point we will go down. Could be next year, could be 5 years, 10 if we are really lucky like a Stoke....could still be this year ! However we will go down at some point and very season we will lose more than we win. I'm not sure that the Pozzo model will affect that either way. We will always lose good coaches and players to bigger prem clubs and miss out on signings to bigger clubs. The structure won't change that. It may minimise the impact of losing a coach but at the same time dissuade some who want to be a manager rather than a coach. Unsuccessful coaches will continue to be fired and so the throughput of coaches will continue to be very high.
     
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    You don’t have to be in the bottom three to be considered a struggling side. We’ve lost over half our matches and conceded more than any side bar one.

    Foruntately there are a lot of other sides that seem to be quite unable to string a set of results together. This is our one big saviour.

    So I would say it’s fair to label us as struggling.
     
  21. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Its quite impressive really, I think we must be the only side currently in the division outside the top 6 who can say that. Thank god for our consistent decent starts
     
  22. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Thought we were in the bottom 3 after we lost at home to Arsenal last season, admittedly that was very early doors.
     
  23. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    It would annoy me intensely. Being hired because my c.v. suggests I know what I'm doing and then not being allowed to get on with it without excessive micro-management and scrutiny.
     
  24. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    I'm old-fashioned lol. Only count the table after 3 games minimum!
     
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  25. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Interesting. You say it's wrong to criticise then launch into a string of criticisms as you do every week when we lose. Who does the buck stop with?

    Besides, I wasn't being over-critical. I suggested the model might need 'tweaking'. That was all.
     
    oxhey67 likes this.
  26. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    And where did I say you were wrong to label us as a struggling side?

    My post was merely being positive and pointing out we'd never been in the bottom 3!

    Not every post here is an attack on you! :)
     
  27. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    As others have said any coach coming here knows the score. If you don't like the Pozzo way do not come here.
    Can the Pozzo model work in practice? Depends what you define as working. If it is to get us to the Premiership and keep us there then it has worked amazingly well. Three - hopefully four years at the top level of English football is massively more than we would have expected six years ago.
    If "working" means holding on to a coach for more than one year or getting more points each year then the success has stalled.
    You could swap us for any team outside the top six. We are essentially achieving much of a muchness year in year out. Unlike others we have yet to be relegated. Last year Southampton thought they were destined to go onwards and upwards - that has not worked.

    Against all the positives my fear is one year we are going to start badly. I fear we do not have the "model" to sort that out.
     
    PotGuy likes this.
  28. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I think a lot of it is about managing our own expectations as fans.
    I will be the first to admit that I speak out on here when I see something that isn’t right with the club/team. But I say it with the truth of how I feel at that time and rarely regret any of the opinions I give.
    But when I factor in the ‘look where we were before the Pozzo era’ part to my thinking, I quickly realise I have little to no grounds for complaint at all.

    So where does that leave us? Because they rescued our club from the man in the red hat, certain administration and a subsequent tumble down the leagues, that they should never be betond reproach? Or that there will come a time where that goodwill runs out?

    I think the answer lies more with the former than the latter, but there should definitely be a middle ground too. It is hard to pass critical comment of Gino on this forum because there will always be someone who is ready to point to a sense of entitlement or being ungrateful. Which I totally understand. But how to point out the mistakes made then?

    What they have done with the non-playing side of the club speaks for itself. VR and London Colney have vastly improved and the renamed stands and sensory room etc show an understanding of the fans and community that prove the club isn’t just a cash-cow to them.

    They seem to mix up the long-term thinking off the pitch with short-term thinking on it. And I think it is this mindset that allows for a confused set of supporters wondering what the actual aims of the club are.
     
  29. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I should add, I agree that if you can’t work within the Pozzo model then you shouldn’t apply for the job. But I do think the job requirements need to be tweaked.

    Whether us fans believe that we are exactly where we should be expected to be - or be doing better or worse - it’s all about balancing those expectations against what we set out to achieve. Given we as fans have little power at the club to set those expectations for the club, would it not be better to place what we expect to happen each season next to statements the board have said? Duxbury openly said we couldn’t afford to keep ‘scraping by’. So whether you believe it’s down to Silva/our defence/poor signings/Gracia’s tactics, the result is the same. We’ve scraped by again and progress is slowing on the pitch after a promising start.
     
  30. Vicarage Road

    Vicarage Road Reservist

    Watford players back then, by and large had limited ability and talent but the majority put a shift in every Saturday. Our current crop have the talent but pick and choose when to graft. Call me old fashioned, a good player has to,first and foremost, work his nuts off every week, in our current squad probably only Cleverly, Mapps, Doucoure & Hughes come close to doing that
     
  31. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    I *think* that the proof of the concept will come when someone, FIFA/UEFA, actually has the balls to enforce (and update) the financial "fair-play" rules. I'm not whining the usual "...it's so unfair..." but it does make a bit of a mockery of FFP when the vast majority of the big (most successful) PL clubs are owned by perfectly legitimate businessmen whose main source of income appears to be magic-money-tree plantations.

    Also someone mentioned "cup-runs" when are we going to see one of those?
     
  32. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    I completely understand where The Uninformed is coming from, but for me it's a classic case of false nostalgia, just like us all remembering our childhood summers as hot and sunny, and winters as always full of snow. My favourite seasons over the past twenty years have been our three promotion seasons plus the Zola one, and the QSF one up to losing the Cup semi. I remember alot of those seasons back in the 90s as being terrible, average, mundane. 5 years ago during the Malky/Dyche era, most of us would have jumped at the thought of 3 successive seasons in the PL. We're all fed up right now after Saturday's rubbish, but again don't let the memory play tricks. There have been some highlights this season too, although the overwhelming sense right now is one of 'we could and should have done better'. Our three seasons back in the PL have really just been as it said on the tin. Us and Muff have both done incredibly well to establish ourselves as PL clubs and find our feet at this level. Let's never lose sight of this.
     
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  33. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    Agree with that, in the old days there wasn't tables until at least three games had been played!
     
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  34. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    I say blame it on the injuries, lets get through the summer, make some changes and hope we are all at least saying the same this time next year!

    The Pozzo's apparently were looking at Charlton as well as us, thank G-D they choose us!
     
  35. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Every summer we start the season 3rd bottom in the pre season league table. It's a disgrace. We need to rename ourselves Aardvark Watford, then we'd be top.
     
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